Greetings and salutations matthewgood.org, other authors, visitors, fans, non-fans, distinguished guests…etc.
In an effort to lower the quality of writing traditionally found on this site - Mr. Good and Mr. Mugford have commissioned me to write the occasional piece on the blog…site…web page…
Matt thinks given my 10+ years in the CF, (I retired recently), that I might have something relevant to say… I had never questioned his judgment up until this point (he seemed relatively intelligent), but that said, what an honor! So I humbly accepted.
To learn more about me, the bio is on the author page…There’s nothing terribly interesting there and in all honesty, I hope to make this venture as little about me or my experiences as possible.
My main objective is to facilitate relevant and honest discourse - usually about the Canadian Forces - which I’ve heard has come up as a topic every now and again on the site. Hopefully, I can chip in with my limited experience from time to time. I am no Lewis Mackenzie or Scott Taylor, but I will do what I can.
My promise to you matthewgood.org nation is the following:
1) I’ll rarely give my view without prefixing that it is my opinion. (I’m very big on critical reading…I failed my LSAT’s…TWICE!).
2) My opinions don’t reflect those of any government institution or military community including DND. You will rarely if ever see me write “Most soldiers think…”
3) I will not disclose names or sensitive information of any kind. I will not bad mouth talk members of the CF and I won’t tolerate personal experiences or grievances being spoken of.
4) If I don’t have the technical subject matter expertise on a subject..I will try and get an answer to a question from an insider when at all possible if not in violation of operational security or other policy and regulation.
There’s probably more…but let’s just get on with the show…
Nobody asked me but:
Support our troops: What does it mean to you?
A well intentioned slogan seems to become more and more contentious as operations in Afghanistan continue. Some might say it’s polarized opinions of the CF altogether.
Yellow ribbons with the slogan “Support our Troops” can be found just about anywhere in Canada. Car magnets. Ribbons on shirts…there’s even a line of children’s beaver t-shirts Supporting Our Troops…
Where do these ribbons and merchandise come from? What is their mandate? Maybe most importantly - what does the merchandise mean to those who purchase and sport them?
Well… duh Pitt…they mean to Support the Troops….
That’s a rather obvious statement - as it should be!
Similar to supporting say, volunteers, firefighters, kittens even…
So how does a simple, well-intentioned slogan divide so many?
I’ll cut to the chase here: To Support the Troops - does it also mean to support all current operations?
Is it to support all military objectives and foreign policies - and the means currently employed in obtaining those objectives?
Does it mean to support the safety of the troops and bring them from harm’s way?
Does it mean employ our soldiers safely with more clearly defined and achievable end states?
Does it mean to support the CF and all it’s allies? To support the “war on terror”?
I support the Toronto Maple Leafs.
I even have a jersey or five - but I don’t support Pavel Kubina!
I’ve heard from many, here on this site and abroad, that to Support Our Troops doesn’t necessarily mean supporting the operation…but to others - maybe even most - it’s a must to support both.
As a former soldier. I like knowing there’s fans - but I definitely want people to know what they’re supporting. I’d do my job regardless because you’re paid to be a professional.
The timely appearance of the campaign might have lead some to believe that Support Our Troops means support the mission in Afghanistan. The marketing campaign didn’t exist on this scale in the 90’s…not to my recollection at least…
Which is probably why for some who don’t support the nature of current operations don’t buy into the ribbon. Perhaps they see it as some form of brainwashing.
One can only presume.
Let’s take a closer look at where this whole Support Our Troops thing came from.
The Support Our Troops market campaign is a venture of CANEX.
Well, what is CANEX?
To a visitor on a military base in Canada, a CANEX may appear to resemble a retail store similar to a Zellers - it sells groceries, appliances, furniture - though it provides many other services to military communities. Community events and financial planning to name but two.
From the Canex web site:
“CANEX, established in 1968, is a retail operation made up of a number of stores and services, designed specifically to meet the needs of the military community. Profits from CANEX operations are distributed to Base, Wing and Unit Funds to be used by DND to finance a wide variety of social and recreational programs for the benefit of military personnel and their dependents. Physical fitness, sports and recreational programs are among the main recipients of CANEX profits;….CANEX operates a diverse international merchandising organization whose goal is to provide a wide range of goods and services to the Canadian military community.”
Okay, so profits from the sales of ribbons, or any similar Support Our Troops merchandise, will in fact…Support the Troops!
Community events, financial services, military family resource centres - you know - stuff that actually Supports Troops! Which is a good thing!
Now the timely appearance of Support Our Troops merchandise and increased operations abroad seem to be in sync - but we’ll assume that the intentions of CANEX and it’s Support Our Troops are genuine.
CANEX, for now, you’re off the hook! Thanks for the low prices, keep it up!
So why is this thing so contentious to everyone?
If the campaign and the profits of this campaign do as promoted, why is it whenever you hear someone talking about a withdraw from Afghanistan that you often will shortly hear someone from the other side of the coin saying “…well then you don’t support the troops!”?
Can’t someone want good things for the military community, which the campaign’s profits help, (and therefore sport a yellow ribbon or Children’s little Soldier boy t-shirt) but not necessarily support, say, the mission in Afghanistan?
Seems cut and dry.
What do you think visitors of matthewgood.org nation?
Maybe you think otherwise….Maybe you think that kids are too young to wear the shirts shown on the site. Maybe you’re not comfortable with mixing contentious foreign issues and merchandising to youths junior the age of reason.
“Hey, not a chance, this is blatant propaganda! I don’t like that kids are wearing this stuff they don’t know what they’re doing.”
Or maybe you think “No this is what we need….we needed this when Canada was in the Balkans and that’s why the military went through so many cutbacks in the in the later half of the last century. It fosters patriotism and a previously absent support and awareness for our men and women of service.”
But that oft used infamous and annoying expressions permeates….
It is what it is. (I hate that expression)
But it’s true. The idea of supporting soldiers has one that fires up more Canadians than I’ve seen in my short lifetime.
One side or the other - and there always seems to be bad blood that ensues.
Matt himself has been accused of being out of the loop with the CF and some might therein made inferences that he was unpatriotic.
I don’t see how…but there are those who connected those dots.
I want to know what it means to you. The readership here.
What do you think or what’s your reaction when you see a Yellow Ribbon? Or a Support Our Troops t-shirt?
“There’s a guy that is all about the operation. “There’s a guy that gets it and is a truly proud Canadian! There’s a veteran. There’s a patriot. Finally Canada isn’t so quiet about it.”
“There’s probably a family member or friend of a serving member.”
“There’s a conservative so entrenched in Bush’s/Harper’s ideas of foreign policy that even his shopping cart always veers to the right.”
Do you think it’s kosher that everyone should have their own reasons and ways for Supporting Our Troops?
You know, that it’s acceptable to support the soldiers but not necessarily the operation in Afghanistan - or even just some of the facets of the operation…
Don’t forget there has been an increased commitment of United Nation Mission Observers to the Sudan from Canada. Maybe you can support soldiers and some operations without supporting others.
Do you think it needs to be polarized?
“Nope, Pitt, they gotta be all in one camp or the other…If you support the troops you gotta be for the Operation in Afghanistan and all operations.”
Basically can you be patriotic, and support the troops and not be pro for an military operation abroad?
I recall hearing some Lewis Black stand up comedy. Where he said it was bullshit that some American politicians thought that those who did not support the war in Iraq were as bad as the terrorists themselves.
I have to admit I agree.
Similarly, I’ve even seen on the site here that there are some that feel that Jack Layton’s comments and proposals might’ve gone too far in his opinions suggesting discourse with Taliban leaders.
So in staying in accordance with the policies of commenting of the site -I otherwise hope this maiden post gets the opinionated juices going - and let’s hear it.
Things to consider before we proceed: Lewis Mackenzie has called out Romeo Dallaire applauding the limited support to the Darfur region. So keep in mind, even esteemed retired generals don’t see eye to eye on everything involving foreign policy.
Thanks for reading and go easy on me.
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I guess to me the “support your troops” slogan means pay attention to your troops. By this I mean watch them and guide them, perhaps, through general public opinion hold their actions and goals accountable to the ideals of the nation, to improve on them and seek morally correct ways of going about things. It’s a stretch I know but I find the saying, with all the polarization it’s caused has actually involved the general public in the war and brought its issues to a more democratic scrutiny. I can’t really say this for certain of course simply for the fact that in my lifetime this is the only war I’ve been old enough to take notice to. Though I disagree with many opinions about the war I can safely say and recognize that the full spectrum of opinions have for the most part a well educated and solid base making them feasible ideals rather than just ambiguous claims.
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Nice to have a fellow soldier aboard…
Hoo-Rah!
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Nice to meet you, Mr. Pitt. Welcome to the community.
I’m guessing you were going to start some debate here on your first post?
Either way, let me pass on to you an informal invitation to the Community Instant Messenger. There tends to be a bit of lively debate… or you can just visit in to share stories or dork around. We’re a pretty harmless bunch.
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(Why does it read as “comments closed” on the main page?)
Nice to see you’re now an official contributor. I’ve always enjoyed reading your comments in other posts.
The ambiguity of the yellow magnets/ribbons, etc., is what leaves me feeling apprehensive. You’d never know on the surface if the person is supportive of the missions and directives in Afghanistan or not. You’d have to ask the person what they intend by displaying the ribbon and open up a dialogue. Sounds simple, but is really quite difficult unless you’re one of those people who doesn’t mind dropping feet first into the unknown. You could find yourself in a public yelling match or make a new friend.
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i think “support the troops” is to deter feelings during the vietnam war in the U.S. where the large majority of Americans didn’t believe in the war, but what was different back then was many didn’t even support the troops and even badmouthed and spit on soldiers when they got back
i think its to say believe in the war or don’t, but the soldiers don’t pick our wars they just fight them so don’t blame them
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Thanks for the well wishing - Roy….Hoo-rah? No Sir,
UBIQUE.
Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt.
And in some rare circumstances…CHIMO!
Scott I like the idea of “guiding them” - I suppose that means through responsible civic behavior. Staying well informed and cognisant of all idea etc.
Fear not that this your first “war”. Majority of Canadians were ignorant of the peacekeeping operations in the Kranj and Bosnia.
Glass - I gladly accept the invitation and will stop by. I know that’s the area for debate and discussion…but I gotta angle some visibility here in the early going seeing that my musical talent doesn’t exist. And given recent events with Dixie Chick-esque polls and comments recently seen about the need to support soldiers…this one seemed like a no brainer.
Truth be told I made the point of what the whole Support Our Troops thing meant to me as an ex-serving member in the hopes that other soldiers would say what it means to them.
At first it bothered me to see the children line of clothing because I had seen a growing trend to very pro-current operation types sporting the merchandise. I wasn’t altogether comfortable with youths being a part of something so political. I’ve since come around on the idea…that said, I’d be interested in knowing of those who display the yellow ribbon line that don’t support the operation as a whole or just partially.
Ugly have you ever taken anyone to task on what wearing the ribbon or magnet or shirt meant? I don’t know if I’d ever feel so comfortable to step out of my comfort zone…the yelling match could definitely come about…
Strange how people can be sensitive about what they display publicly so willingly.
I only once saw somebody question our display of pins and ribbons…It was two years ago in November when Tony Pierce visited Vancouver and asked me why people were wearing red flowers on their lapels.
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Ah the old spitting on the soldiers lie. “Support the Troops” is one of those vague slogans like “What Does Freedom Mean to You” or that whole religion thing some people get into. I’ll pass…. though it has given me ideas for t-shirt designs. “Support the Kittens”? Yeah, you’d but that, admit it.
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Freedom to me means about a buck oh five actually.
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Nope, never. I tend to see them on cars while I’m driving, which doesn’t really allow for chit-chat. Regardless, I’m not the type to just go up to someone and start yakking. I’m rather shy.
Could you imagine these extremes having a chance conversation in a parking lot?
“If you support the troops in Afghanistan, it means you support killing Afghani citizens!”
vs.
“If you don’t support the troops, it means you want CF members to be killed, and you love the Taliban!”
I guess Tony didn’t see any white poppies. That’s always a fun debate. :oP
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Supporting Our Troops - a non-black-and-white topic…
I don’t see it possible to follow totally one side or the other just because of a ribbon or slogan. It’s like those who say “You either follow the Bible word-for-word or not at all”. The world is not digital, not even fuzzy logic, it’s totally analog. Even I realize these things and I’m an engineer, who is very black and white.
Speaking in general about wars and countries involved in wars…
I don’t agree with war, especially the recent “wars” we’ve seen. These past few wars seem to be full of ulterior motives or hidden agendas, lots of propaganda, and a lot of deception by high leveled officials (both in the government and military).
I can understand the reasons for it all, trying to gain support for the wars by the general public, but I think it has done more harm than good. How many people can trust their governments anymore? How many people believe that those who are fighting, not making decisions but actually fighting, actually know the real truth behind what is going on? I doubt many do. They can’t do their job if they did. The training/conditioning takes care of that. The safety of the troop, their core, the civilians they are defending depends on it.
I’ve heard from sources in North Van, those from places like Iran and whom are educated and recently immigrated here, some rather different views (shown below in point form with my comments in square brackets)
- close the [Canadian] borders, the refugees are going to just blow things up, the governments keep them dumb and this is all they know, walk out and leave them to their devices [clearly a very general statement, but they are referring to those who are of lower class and have not been blessed with education]
- the governments are so corrupt, full of people that want to keep the masses ignorant and full of the “Death to America” blood-lust and that’s why they do suicide bombs and are easily lead astray by insurgents, because they don’t know any better [This I think makes some sense, those that do not know enough to think to question can easily be controlled and would do as they would if they thought for themselves]
- Iran’s government is so corrupt it would take 100 years to clean it up [I think most governments are corrupt, though levels vary, and it is partly the people's fault. In Western countries, our governments would do as we said, a lot more than they currently do, if we actually all stood up together and said something, but many don't. Many are under the belief of the media's message as well, which can easily sway the masses. Think about it, the petitions have effect only because they show large numbers of people taking a stand. Places like Iran are not so lucky, as many who stand up face dire consequences (ie their lives - as the two journalists who have now ~18 days to appeal their sentence). Executive Orders recently handed out seem to be of similar flavour, though worded to be too complex for most to read into and see it that way.]
Do they Support Our Troops? Apparently not, but they are no longer living in the conditions that many in war-torn countries do. I think those whom suffer greatly do appreciate the efforts of our Troops trying to make it possible for them to live in peace. Those that don’t and live there, given the greyness of the world, disagree for too many reasons and they are entitled to it!
Having said all that, Supporting Our Troops is not simply a black and white decision and need not be “either you support your military or you are a traitor” as things are far too complex to label black and white.
What I would like to see is not just our troops going after insurgents, but our government trying to help reduce the corruption in their government. Work with them to improve things and remove those in power that want things in chaos, my guess is chaos helps hide corruption.
I would like to see Iraq’s president actually be heard and supported. Maybe, just maybe, his claims about Gen David P. might have even a hint of truth. It’s worth working with them to try to resolve the issues and restore power back to the governments, while reducing corruption.
Recent actions by certain governments lead me to think this is not quite their plan. But I’d be preaching to the choir here for saying that.
In closing, support of any kind that helps improve society is good. And we could do a lot more support simply by getting up and saying something! If one person does it, they are discredited (or worse) by those in power whom don’t want to change. If 50 000 or more (depending on the level of government) stand up, then we’ll be heard.
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Welcome Patrick,
I’m tired of ribbons and wristbands and all the like. I’m glad people are “supporting the troops” but why go through a proxy and not directly to the troops or military with money or gifts? It’s a waste of money and resources to produce/buy these trinkets and all they serve to do is make someone look like an attention seeker: they scream, “look how trendy and generous I am, I’m so thoughtful I bought something.” As George said, what you can do for your country is keep shopping. I don’t mean to attack those who genuinely care, those feelings are no doubt real and apparent, but it really just serves to skim a few dollars off of what could have been a bigger donation.
I think we’ll find few people in Canada that are against the troops, what we need to do is give the Canadian Forces some work they can feel proud.
I would love to start a company that produces a wristband to promote awareness about how dumb it is to buy wristbands. And maybe a bumper sticker that tells people to stop reading and start driving.
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Welcome Patrick.
I wear one of the yellow ribbon pins every day on my hat, because I believe it is critically important to show support for our servicemen and women abroad. I have even in the past considered a career in the CF, but Ive gone in another direction now (in school to be a History Teacher).
That being said, I do not support the mission we are currently engaged in. I believe that our forces should not be in a combat role in Afghanistan. I do not like seeing 50 combat deaths for no reason. Lots of people will say that they are dying for Afghan freedom, and maybe that is so, but there is no overall goal for the mission, and so long as that exists I can not support it.
I personally have no problem with the stickers, dog tags, pins, etc. that are available for people to buy. I know dozens of people who have them, and most of them do not support the mission, but rather support the continued welfare of our troops overseas. As do I.
You will find very few people in Canada who are against the troops, but very many who are against the mission. I think that far too often the support ribbons are taken for support of the mission rather than the support for our fellow Canadians who are fighting and dying in Afghanistan because they are professionals and are sworn to. We have some of the best troops in the world, and I hope that in 2009 they can come home without any more deaths. though I am sure I am dreaming if I expect that.
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I don’t have a problem with people that want to display ribbons in support of the troops, and if the money spent actually goes to support them, even better. The problem I do have is with the ‘all or none’ people who politicize the slogan and distort the message. Why is it that the people always screaming it the loudest, have never served, and have all kinds of excuses of why they can’t actually do the fighting and dieing they claim to so strongly support?
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there has been an issue brewing here with the ’support our troops’ stickers going on city of calgary vehicles. i’ve sent a few messages to the mayor (who doesn’t want them on vehicles) and one to an alderman (who thinks it’s our duty to have them on city vehicles).
i think everyone is entitled to their opinion and can do what they want on their own to show support, but in no way should it be put on public vehicles - not everyone supports canada’s role in the middle-east.
i’m glad we have a fine group protecting our interests and peace-keepers in areas where we provide support, but i don’t think canada’s role should be military action in an offensive manner as it has been in afghanistan.
military life is a job like many other walks of employment, but with much higher consequences for judgemental or tactical error. not a job i’d want, but i’m glad others do. i think we should continue to support our troops with better pay, better training and better equipment, but i think sticker campaigns really don’t serve any purpose other than giving the average joe citizen the feeling like they are doing something ‘positive’.
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As a matter of personal choice, I wouldn’t display anything that said “support the troops” because I wouldn’t want people to assume that I am strongly behind the mission in Afghanistan. I think because people on the right have been so consistent in linking supporting the troops with supporting the war, and because some display such things to express support for the war, many people do make that assumption, and it’s unfortunate.
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That’s precisely why you you’d display it, generalzyx.
How better than to corner those with such assumptions into debate?
I wore a t-shirt for quite awhile (when it fit!) that said AMURICAN FREEDUMB. Always had good conversations as a result : )
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OK-I probably have nothing new to offer here but I’m needing to write….a little….I used to live right near Fort Bragg, NC which is an army base here…the “Support Our Troops” bumper stickers, banners, pins, ribbons, flyers…just everything…became a necessity accessory…I never wished to wear it or use the slogan as I (and my boyfriend at the time who was stationed with the army) never wanted to be possibly associated with a clause that could easily affiiate us with a politic we also didn’t believe in…
What interests me the most out of all of this is this saying in the means of discourse….I feel I can honestly speak for many Americans, most feel it’s affiliated with Republicanism, pro-war, propaganda stuffed down our throats through numerous news networks that have nothing else to do with their time…Anyone I know here who has the “Support Our Troops” bumper sticker on their car but is not pro-war or pro-Bush or Republican, feels the need to add, I’m not Republican if the bumper sticker is pointed out….people are throwing their lives on the line for who really knows what and we are still more concerned with political affiliation….
However, I don’t know one person who is anti-troops, anti-soldier…who doesn’t feel some sort of compassion for what these people do…cos you know what, I sure as hell wouldn’t do it…
Public discourse during times of war…now there’s a course I wish I could have taken during college…
That aside, Mr. Pitt welcome to the site…I look forward to your entries…
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Happy first post Patrick… and many more.
I like the opening manifesto. That sort of maturity is in short supply.
Two possible answers to your question:
Support for the troops?
In a passive or personal sense, support for the troops would be to acknowledge their sacrifice. Regardless of the engagement we owe them the same basic respect we show policemen, firemen, etc. — with the added caveat that they undertake many of the same duties but far from home and while undergoing what might basically be described as extreme culture shock.
Actively as citizens, we should maintain enough political literacy to ensure that we (via our elected officials) don’t abuse this sacrifice and place our soldiers where they can do the greatest possible effort with the utmost effort made to ensure they don’t have to sit around while the issue becomes deadlocked, politicized, and filibustered; the citizenry disinterested.
What isn’t support for the troops?
The perpetuation of military engagements for the sake of securing or maintaining military contracts; or for an ineffectual prime minister who uses the military as a public relations front to score an invite to Washington.
Cowardly fear-tactic editorials on the part of the national intelligensia in an attempt to sell a new conflict paradigm in the style of the Cold War — either because they do not understand any other way or are actually comfortable in their bigotry.
And you’re right. It doesn’t have to be polarized.
***
Lewis Black? Hippo eats dwarf.
Cheers.
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Hippo eats dwarf…classic…
What a fantastic response!
I’d like to back up the bus for a sec here…and thanks to ol’ Jason Bourne being up to his old tricks I won’t be able to respond to everything here but I’d like to re-illustrate.
The support our troops merchandise is set up by CANEX through whom certain services are provided for military families and military communities…
For example: a hat is purchased with a ribbon - maybe that helps put together a BBQ for some families of those posted abroad. That’s a broad example - but rest assured it’s not like the funds are purchasing M777 howitzers.
And when we speak of troops in the CF it isn’t just the army or those serving. It includes the Navy and Airforce as well….One would be hard pressed to find someone who didn’t support the Search and Rescue teams of the air force….
(Did I just stand up for the airforce?! Retirement suits me…)
General: okay that’s what i’ve been getting at….and then i notice it just wasn’t me. Is there a perception that this campaign while not intended to - actually divides public opinion?
Some might say yes…and it’s a question worth asking….Especially when you have petitions like the one on this site…
Because why can’t someone lobby for a change in foreign policy and not be patriotic at the same time?
There’s absolutely no reason why not.
And yet - I’m gonna go out on a limb here and as General alluded to - there would be very few that are against combat operations abroad that would feel comfortable sporting a yellow ribbon.
Superfunk valid points (public EMS vehicles displaying the magnets got the green light in the GTA though and for all the right reasons as I see it…not as a message to foreign policy but to show genuine support for fellow men and women of service in harms way): keep in mind though that not all of the CF’s actions in Afghanistan are “offensive” or lethal. The Provincial Reconstruction Team works in close support with tribal leaders and NGO’s to promote the re-development of regional infrastructure.
Ebrachmann: you have a lot to offer with that and thank you. Same as with Generalzyx. I would love to see stats showing political views with Support our Troops merchandise purchasers…because if it does divide a country’s peoples on foreign policy then the military (which is supposed to NOT be a tool of any political party but the people of a democratic country) then the marketing campaign despite it’s initial intent serves a potentially corrosive effect to uniting a people under a common and non-partisan cause.
The reason why I breeched this subject first of many is because I think some have seen Matt as anti-soldier because he is anti-combat ops in Afghan….
That is quite an obtuse view…because it disregards so many other facets of the military that he might be a strong proponent of…
I’m pretty sure he was alright with the army helping out at the Barrier Fires a few years back….and yet look at the flack from that poll the other day…
Yes i’m resurrecting that horse to beat it some more…because that’s what is in question here…
What is…Supporting the troops?
In any case this is the direction I had hoped to go with this…thanks for the feedback. I read what I can.
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Supporting the troops is what you make of it.
I personally would never display something with “Support the Troops” on it because right now it resembles support for the war/ “mission” in Afghanistan which is outrageous. I appreciate that the people in the military are there to represent our country and provide support in Afghanistan but my question is: are they there for the right reason?
Recently a friend of mine decided to join the army just because there is an active war. His explanation is that he wanted to be involved in military combat because that option was available to him. He wants to go to Afghanistan just to be able to fight and use a gun. Is this really the type of person you want representing our country? Would you still use a car magnet to support a person who has no interest in what the war is about, but just a desire to hold a weapon?
Don’t get me wrong, I realize that many members of the military are not like this at all and I am not trying to be stereotypical. But Canadians need to realize that not all of our troops are there for the most professional reasons.
The next car magnet will read:
“Support the Troops - but only the ones I believe are there for the right reasons”
I am sure many people will fight me to the death on why Canada needs to be involved in the current war, but I don’t think we need to be there. I don’t know if anyone has read Macleans lately but there was a letter sent in to them by Chris Karigiannis a 31-year-old sergeant stationed in Afghanistan. He had seen a picture of a girl on the cover of the University Issue of Macleans and wrote in saying how she was “an extremely attractive young lady”. Macleans tracked down the girl, Kinga Ilyes, who was flattered and talked about travelling to Afghanistan to thank the troops. Until June 20, when Chris Karigiannis was killed along with two other soldiers. Reading his letters and emails made me feel like I knew him, and I was so sad when I found out he had been killed.
The deaths of our soldiers is unnecessary. I believe our involvement in Afghanistan is unnecessary. This battle is a lose-lose situation.
My magnet: “No More Bodybags”
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I dont have much to say about the pins/bumper stickers/etc… I do have something to say about the actual slogan.
Supporting our troops means supplying them with the medical care they need (both mental and physical) in order to cope with injuries they receive defending me and those I care about (other Canadians).
Supporting our troops means believing in them to do the moral thing when placed in impossible situations.
Supporting our troops means providing financial security to loved ones of lost service (wo)men.
Supporting our troops means paying respects to the fallen defenders (wear a poppy on 11/11, and remember why you wear it… dont bend the poppy pin so that it stays on easily … its not supposed to be easy. The difficulty in keeping the poppy on and the vigilance you must employ to keep it is representative of the vigilance the CF provide our safety with.)
Supporting our troops means saying Thank you for defending my rights and freedoms
Thank you Pitt, for your 10 years of service.
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Quoting coren:
You call this person a friend, but you do not support him. Don’t friends support one another no matter what? Or rather, don’t friends stop each other and make sure their friends take actions for the right reasons?
It sounds like this person is more like “someone you know” rather than a friend. In which case they may have been boasting about “being able to fight” to look tough, when in fact they have ulterior motives which are more pure (but also more sissy-like) that they are unwilling to share with casual acquaintances.
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Welcome here! I don’t comment very much, but I read.
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i dig on jess’s and coren’s comments - i really do.
jess’ because it does confirm the ol’d Spidey Senses that there is a prevailing assumption that to support soldiers means to support all current foreign policy.which is why i brought this up.
coren because he gave what could be considered some perfectly non-foreign policy related issues in favour of the merchandise. which as read by the Canex website is the intent in the first place.
one could argue the timeliness of the campaign created the disconnect.
jess: the buddy who wants to use a gun? are you serious? that’s pretty disturbing - but i guess there are some guys out there who feel that that is what will make them feel like more of a man.
i can’t really say. the first time i ever picked up a c-7 i felt like i was holding more power then i was ever meant to. i always tried to temper it with a great deal of respect and ensure my drills were perfect and instinctual. the instructors helped to foster that respect so hopefully the same will happen for your friend.
hopefully…hopefully that will be sorted out in his basic training too..
(that said i went on to a career in the Artillery and become proficient in some of the most destructive means available in the army…i always tried to keep in mind the power at my hands and temper it with that same respect….fracticide is no joke…again the instructors i came across in the CF were some of the safest in the world….and i should know…i was one a multitude of times.)
i was going to save this for a later post but be sure to pass it on to your friend….
Only a handful of soldiers, infantry (not counting snipers and JTF 2), can say they’ve had an enemy in the cross-hairs and effectively engaged. majority of enemy casualties have been the result of artillery and forward air controllers. A very select group of mostly arty officers.
So the romance associated with action films and weapons and storming the trenches is more hollywood than reality.
coren: i’m sorry i bend that pin…i’d never heard about that before, the vigilance and stuff, but that thing will slip off all the time otherwise. better to be caught with a bent pin then no poppy at all.
the poppy is an interesting case in this discussion in that it’s something all canadians have accepted where as the yellow ribbon does seem more partisan.
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Here in Halifax, whenever a Naval vessel lands unloading troops serving in the Middle East, our local newspapers run photos of soldiers reuniting with families. It’s touching to see a photo of a 2 year old latching on to her father’s neck as if it’s the first time she’s laid eyes on him. “Supporting the Troops” to me simply means thanking God that that soldier, that child’s father, made it home safely from the ridiculous, unnecessary mission that someone sitting behind a desk, playing a game of real life “Risk” has sent him on. I can support that man, for bravely taking on the profession of soldier, willingly defending my rights and the rights of my fellow Canadians, but I do not have to support our Canadian foreign policy. A soldier follows orders to the best of his ability under any and all circumstances. That fact alone deserves the support of our countrymen. It’s the suits pulling the strings and willingly putting that man, that chid’s father, in harms way I have trouble with.
I support having a “Defense Budget” but not having an “Offense Budget”. The job of the Canadian miitary is to protect the rights and freedoms of Canadian citizens, not to go to countries thousands of miles away with the mission of telling people of a completely different culture how to live their lives. Before 9/11, Afghanistan and the Taliban were committing glaring human rights violations, but we did nothing but watch. We only took action when it was politically in our best interests to jump on the pro-American bandwagon.
I hope I never hear about another soldier coming home in a body bag. I also hope somebody figures out the folly of sending a soldier to Afghanistan in the first place.
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here here broken man on a Halifax pier…that’s really well put. we should switch. you write for mblog…and i’ll drink beers and eat mussels at the Lower Deck.
actually for the record the Taliban was praised by the UN for massive reductions in opium production…
funny how poppies can come up twice in this discussion in two very different fashions.
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I’m going to bypass the whole “support the troops” slogan debate because, to be blunt, it is one of those generic phrases that can be interpreted in a hundered different ways. On to something else. What I fail to understand is why so many people here have no support for the current mission. Is it such a bad thing to be making an effort to stabilize a set up a democracy in a country that has not seen either? Is it such a horrific thing to be spreading things like freedom; giving females in that country the hope to be more than wife in their life? Yes, unfortunately we have soldiers dying, but that is always a big price to pay for something much bigger. Think of how many lives will be changed and affected once we are done there. I say we stay there till the job is done, we are doing a good thing and to just pull out all together is a very cowardly notion. Not to mention, to me, it would reduce the sacrificies made by our fallen soldiers to nothing.
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I personally find the whole issue obscene. “Support Our Troops” is ridiculously simple. People forget the realities of life in a damn hurry. In this “super civilized” world we live in, any one of those men/women could be getting shot in the face tomorrw in order to protect your sorry ass. The political point of it all? I’m betting the politics of it are not so important when your blazing away at some Muslim w/a C7 who has been told ny Allah not to befriend or trust any Jew or Christian because they don’t accept “the word” (quran)
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Personally I have intentionally avoided displaying anything that says “support the troops”, not because I don’t support the troops themselves, but because like others I see that the public perception could be that if you display that ribbon you must automatically support the mission in Afghanistan, and so forth.
It’s wrong to assume, but people do often make such assumptions.
I don’t want to contribute to an atmosphere of supporting that mission, even if the assumption that I support it is just wrong … the point is that people will interpret the ribbon in whatever way that suits them. They will not get be able to ascertain MY intention behind the message.
And frankly I don’t buy into the argument that it stimulates discussion. These ribbons, when put on the back of a car, go by in a flash and there’s usually no chit chat involved. The impact of the ribbon remains (in whatever way you interpret it), but there is no discussion when you’re driving along the highway.
I don’t take the decision lightly. I have family in the CF. And naturally I want those serving to be supported in every appropriate sense of the word.
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I think it is a great question to explore philosophically, but it is also a tricky one that provokes a visceral, emotional response in people.
At risk of being castigated as an insensitive dick to a large number of contributors here (soldiers or families or friends), I have to admit that I do not support the troops, at least in a similar sense as the great number of people typically cite as their reasons. Having said that, I do wish ill or accident upon anyone who as part of their occupation, puts themselves in dangerous situations. I simply do not support the choice of becoming a soldier, or in any way want to legitimize the military industrial complex (which requires there be a military with soldiers), or the goals of a military campaign (do you really want our troops to ‘hit ‘em hard’?). Solving political, religious or ethnic conflict through military force seems barbaric, and not the way an enlightened version of mankind would approach such problems. For example, the terror crisis of 9/11called for a police action instead of war, and had we responded in this way, we might have investigated and learned answers to questions such as “why do they hate us so”.
Supporting the troops is not the same as supporting firefighters, whose sole purpose is to assist people (I do recognize that assisting Canadians is a component of the military). As we do not have a draft, our military is made up of volunteers who agree to be trained in techniques of violence, and most realize that they can be dispatched for less than altruistic political means. My view is that instead of holding a military career as one worthy of unquestioned respect, it should become commonly understood as a wasted life/career choice. Without the fuel of soldiers, wars cannot be waged by leaders. Several family members of previous generations were involved in the military, and I respect the choices they made nearly 70 years ago. Everyone agrees that we live in a much different world now, but how have we evolved? To progress as a society and as human beings, we need to change the way we approach problems in the complexities of the world. Perhaps the intolerance of certain strains of religion, or the inequitable distribution of wealth, are areas which could be better addressed in a non-military way.
I believe this idea that the military cannot be criticized, and must be glorified, is dangerous. If the “our troops are our best people, and always doing a great job” slogan is true, how does the rise of a Somalia incident happen? In war, there are no innocent sides. You can take a look at the War Crimes Museum in Ho Chi Minh, or peruse the data on America’s finest young men & women who were employed at Abu Ghraib (okay, some of these individuals were third party mercenaries), and it is difficult to say ‘My Country Right of Wrong”. Patriotism, coupled with state sanctioned violent actions, is not an admirable national trait.
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kanji - I hope you realise you make some assumptions in your argument. In that to support the operation as it is conducted now means it will result in the desired end states.
You obviously think that significant progress is being made and that that is the case. Some might say the increase in opium, the fact that casualties have increased as time goes by, and that counter insurgents have become more proficient in their methods means that the tactics employed to this point have made work more difficult.
You know mortar attacks and positions have drastically increased and improved since 01-02….
What exactly is your measure of success and the argument that reinforcing the current methods as they are now will achieve realistic and achievable goals?
“What I fail to understand is why so many people here have no support for the current mission”…You don’t understand why some are saying that?
You also use the term “freedom being spread”? I don’t think anyone questions the merits of human rights being promoted. I think it’s the means by which that objective that is being obtained is contentious to so many.
“Think of how many lives will be changed and affected once we are done there” I think a lot of lives have been changed. For the good and they bad. Provincial reconstruction allows local tribal leaders to take matters into their own hands to improve living conditions. But air strikes gone awry will also leave a bitter taste in some natives’ minds….the freedom fighters or as the west calls them - terrorists - of tomorrow.
But let’s back up the bus and stay on topic. This post isn’t about support for the mission. It’s titled what does support the troops mean to you.
Do you feel that supporting the troops means you must support the current foreign policy and methods in place? Is it a black and white issue to you?
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Nathan you’re right in that in the heat of battle politics takes a back seat to achieving strategic objectives and survival. The Battery Commander during the Battle of Panjwai admits that he was so focussed on his job and keeping his men alive and holding ground - that he wasn’t really thinking about politics.
That said, we must remember that the nature of the operation in Afghanistan is not one so cut and dry of warfighting or humanitarian aide or even peacekeeping (though not so much at this time).
Is a full spectrum operations - meaning that every soldier must be a diplomat as well.
Fire Support Co-ordination measures are in place to ensure that effects of direct and indirect fire don’t hurt or kill civilians or property of the region. Non-lethal targeting through NGOs is critical to the prolonged success of winning hearts and minds and sometimes a battle that provideds only short term results must be curbed in order to set the conditions for a longer lasting peace.
The bigger picture is critical when dealing in full spectrum operations.
Attrition warfare is only useful to a point.
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Alpenglow, I have similar views regarding militaries and it does irk me that we’ve been trained to believe that soldiers are the best our society has to offer. But I want to be a grammar nazi here so no one takes your words and distorts them. I’m sure Alpenglow meant to say “I do NOT wish ill or accident upon anyone who as part of their occupation” instead of “I do wish…”
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Proxy nazi away!
I’m huge on critical reading…good save.
Soldiers are the best our society has to offer? Who said that?
They’ve never been to Sweetwater’s in Fredericton NB on a Friday night!
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“There’s a conservative so entrenched in Bush’s/Harper’s ideas of foreign policy that even his shopping cart always veers to the right.” - that was some funny stuff Pitt.
As for supporting the troops, i think its only polarized now because the Americans made an absolute mess of it. For the last several years, not supporting the war has been politicized into not supporting the troops, being a defeatocrat, cut and run, and all that other mindless slander that has become the cornerstone of debate in US politics. I think it would have been different here in Canada if we had not been watching this situation progress and evolve into the nameless beast it is now. Oh wait, the beast does have a name - propoganda and the poltics of fear.
Fear of being labelled a traitor, a coward, or soft on terror.
Now i served three years during University with the LER in Edmonton. As such, i see this entire issue a little differently. I do not see it as a support the Afghanistant mission slogan. But rather what it says. Support the troops. For the last 10-15 years we as Canadians have pretty much ignored our army, and its a fucking shame that have done so. Poor wages, shoddy equipment, and a grossly underfunded budgets that would be lamented for a day in the paper before all was forgotten. Look how much we need to spend now just to bring the equipment levels back up to some sort of positive fighting standard. It’s been a joke. So when i see a support the troops, i see it for what it is. I mean, i would have gone reg force but at the time the Libs were in charge, and i couldn’t get any training as a reservist. Almost none, it was a complete joke…and it was too bad because i really enjoyed the entire experience. I thought to myself, self, if you can’t get training and its frustrating as a reservist, is it going to be worse in reg. force. From some of the guys i talked to, fucking-a it was going to be, so i opted not to.
Pitt, as for what you say about the C7 rifle and the girl whose friend is gung-ho, you are spot on. The guy will change his opnion when he’s got some drill instructor breathing down on him. I was a little ramped up the first time i was told i was going to get to pick up the c7 as well. Let me tell you, i was shitting bricks within short order. I had already become the Kit-Guy to the Warrant for leaving my kit around twice (not my fault, i swear.), so by the time we got to our rifles, i was very aware of what i was holding. The drill instructor is there to breath fire and fear down your pants, so in short order you’re so tense you can’t shit and eat, and you treat that damned thing with respect. Or he’ll know why.
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I am pleased someone noticed my error (thank you proxy), and realized it was an oversight and not something far more sinister. and yes, “I DO NOT wish ill…..” was how the sentence was meant to be written. No one is more alarmed than myself to see that I too am capable of Bush style malapropisms…
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Quoting Dale Mugford:
Unfortunately, it’s not possible to debate with every person who sees you driving/walking down the street. I think the support the troops slogan is forever tainted; perhaps someone can come up with a new slogan that expresses the same sentiment without (yet) having been appropriated by hawks.
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I’d happily display a bumper sticker that said “Support the troops, impeach Bush/Cheney!”
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arthmail blame your CoC for poor training not politicians…
gotta work with the tools you got.
good training is not subject to $. but i digress.
i think a lot of troopies see it the “Support…” campaign as you do . …though i can’t say for sure…a good soldier is traditionally not a glory hound…
so people can wear yellow, camo, or purple ribbons for the troops….
me…i loved working hard and givin’ ‘er for 14 days straight and then having a good time in the mess…
ribbons?…good for boxes and christmas presents…just let me train and do my job….but the question always is…what is that job? it’s the people and the gov’t that decide.
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I could blame the CoC. I mean, i was just a grunt so the amount of information that i recieved was nil. But here are some examples:
1)During basic we were only allowed a very limited number of bullets. Really just enough to qualify. No more, because we had no budget.
2)As a member of b company, we often waited around for hours on parade night before being told to just “go hang out in the mess” - that is, truthfully, why i resigned. I felt wrong getting paid to sit in the mess. I was waisting time and taxpayers dollars doing nothing.
So yea, it probably did come down to the CoC. But where do they get the money from? Politicians. Come now, the liberals have been underfunding the army for a decade. I support the libs more than any other party in most anyway except for that.
I loved the training. I love the hard work, i loved slogging. I loved getting jacked up and torn down. I loved it all. But there was never any training. There was stuff they could have done, i’m sure, that didn’t require any cash. Tactics, drill, anything. But the experience i had was one of no money, no time, thanks for coming. It was a shame, at least for me. Thats the experience that i got from it.
And i didn’t mean it for glory, the support the troops thing. It has nothing to do with glory. It has more to do with Canadians pretty much ignoring their armed forces for a decade or so. I think, if anything, i see it as awareness. Awareness that there are alot of people working damned hard with shit for money.
But you saw it far more than i did, and from a completely different level. I’m only relating it as i saw it. I know of all the reservists that i took my BMQ with, for example, only one went full time reservist or even stayed in for a few years. And that is from a broad range, including artillery, infantry, support etc. We all encountered the same problem at the reserve level. No training, because a claim of no money.
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Welcome Pat, and thanks for the discussion. Loved the reference to Sweet’s, heh.
I think I only have one previous post for at least three years of reading here, but decided I’d throw in my two cents because somewhere back there you said you wanted to hear what soldiers thought on all this.
It is all very much interpretive as many have said, and I’m not sure I have anything actually new to add. But on the topic of those sporting the ribbon only being those who support the mission, I wanted to point out that my mother has a small collection of the magnetic ribbons she displays, but finds the whole conflict senselessly tragic and very regularly sheds a tear or two at pictures of ‘ramp ceremonies’ on the front page.
I guess actually, in a vague and roundabout way, that sums up what “Support the Troops” means to me.
CHIMO, Pat, I look forward to your next entry.
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Welcome to the site Patrick!
I spent some time in the CF and I’ve got alot of friends out in the desert risking their necks on a daily basis. Regardless of your personal opinions of the operation, they deserve all the support the folks back home can give them, and they’re very thankful for it.
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Thanks guys great in put….it’s dodgey giving your opinion when you’re in the service but I appreciate the feedback.
Good first post…looking forward to more of the same.
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cops go easy on you if you have a yellow ribbon on your car
that is most people have them
my guess since 2005 when 5000 more officers were put on the roads of Ontario
the sale of the yellow ribbons went up
1000 of the 5000 were placed into the KW region
the general out look on the ribbons is it keeps me out of trouble but I don’t support the Middle Eastern war
Southern Ontario is very “liberal” not the party but supporting equal rights for all and stopping war
KW is made from 3 city’s Cambridge (PC) Kitchener (Liberal) and Waterloo (Liberal) in the last election
years before this Cambridge was (PC) and Kitchener was (PC) and Waterloo has 2 University’s keeping its outlook a strong (Liberal) majority. BUT because of the 3 city’s population difference each city gets so many seats and then the seats are pooled together making the votes to the region never what the people want
this whole yellow ribbon enforces a right wing agenda
turning beautiful Canada in to the united states and so fourth
as far as i know people only use the ribbon to his or her own gain
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wait a tic you mean to tell me that you think a good number of people use the magnets to get out of a traffic ticket? i can see why a cop might think you’re an upstanding citizen for having one…but OPP are pretty anal… i think they’d see through that…
and you also think the yellow ribbon makes us more like the states.?…interesting. i can’t say i agree but i can see how the trend might be considered.
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Ok, I’m late with my response, but I haven’t had alot of time lately and yours was a long post.
I didn’t even read all the comments. Shame on me.
What I do want to say is that we don’t have any “Support Our Troops” ribbons or stickers or license plate holders on our vehicle because to too many people it means “Support The War”, and we don’t want to make that statement. My brother-in-law even gave us one and we refused to put it on. I’m sure he thought us unpatriotic, but, as you know so well, it is a difficult position to convey to those who believe war is the only solution, and our “War On Terror” is more than justified.
I did buy a “Support Our Future Troops” badge from my son’s cadet fundraisers. A local bike gang took it upon themselves to make the badges and donate them to raise money for the cadets–they weren’t even asked to help out, they just did, and I thought that was too wonderful not to contribute. I keep it on my desk at home.
I support our soldiers in that I want to see them survive and I don’t want to see them played as pawns in a political or economic game and I don’t want them put in a position where they’ll be traumatized for life. Make me a bumper sticker that says something like that, and I’ll buy it.
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‘effing rights you’re late….
i kid i kid….
thanks for the response mmaw…
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I have some questions for you Capt. Pitt, if you don’t mind answering them.
In my opinion dealing death to affect foreign political objectives is the most solemn power a voter can wield, necessitating the maximum of that voter’s attention. My question is, do you think that Canadian voters who can’t be bothered to learn anything about their own involvement in Afghanistan retain the right to support our presence there? To draw a parallel, imagine Coke settling up bottling in India and then receiving word that their depots may be depriving the people of water. If the Coke executives refuse to examine the situation, assuming that their company is altruistic and naturally doing the best it can for everyone, do those executives deserve to remain in a country if they can’t be bothered to analyze their own business?
I take this war very seriously, I think of it on some level at least once every day and I look eagerly towards the day when I feel like my country has been delivered from a violent and unfortunate situation. Am I overreacting? I get the impression from most Canadians that this is just a “peace-keeping exercise” not to be considered on the same level of importance as the previous wars which shaped our national military consciousness. But for 66 of our families, this is the most important thing to happen in the history of our nation, that’s the reality of politics when death is involved.
Where do you think world peace begins? A standing down of the guards of all things principled, ie deconstruction of the West’s global police force, or are those guards a necessity until every last Kim Jong-Il has been disarmed? Does western policing hold back what would otherwise be a much more violent and warlike society, or does the weapons proliferation that comes in the wake of western intervention cause more strife than it solves?
I often hear that American military might is keeping Canada safe. Surely you are aware of the amount of guns in the hands of private citizens in this country. Combine this with the advice I got from the Princess Bride (among many other life lessons from that movie) Never get involved in a land war in Asia. A quick glance at the vast geography of Canada gives one the same doubt about an army’s ability to stay provisioned over so much land. Recent major military conflicts have also shown that indigenous populations have become quite adept at overwhelming what should be a superior occupying force. My question is, based on these facts and based on your knowledge of the abilities of our soldiers, who would almost immediately melt into the population to lead/protect the people if faced with an occupation, is Canada really dependent on America for protection?
I’m looking forward to your contributions, sir. Within a year or so you will even have your own talented writing style to brag about!
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(It’s Capt retired actually…)
I appreciate you concern of my opinions but that and 5 cents will get you a cup of coffee.
The point of this post was to get a feel for and inspire honest discussion on the subject of the campaign of “support of troops”.
That said I appreciate the careful articulation of your comment and will seek to answer it within my self-imposed parmeters.
Firstly, while you didn’t outright say it I will respond in that the stated intent of the operation in the Stan right now isn’t to “deal death”. Do I think that Canadian voters who don’t take the time to inform themselves of all aspects of the operation have the right to speak about support?
I’ll answer that with a paraphrased quote speaking tt the evils of representative government and democracy -”…. where the village idiot may have as much say as a scientist or lawyer…”
Those rights were fought for and defended by soldiers and therefore I have to believe inherently that the nation and it’s leaders will attempt to steer the pointy end of the country’s military arm in the right direction…and hopefully the conscience of sites such as these will temper those with the lack of apathy to learn more.
(this is all me trying to sound smart please be advised I’ve had 4 shots of remy xo by this point in the evening).
I’m glad you say things like “taking this war seriously” because it is that type of conscience that i truly believe is the one that supports our troops. the one that will not send them unnecessarily in harms way.
I think our nation due to it’s power has a responsibility to be leaders by example in all best intentions on the best intelligence provided. I think to the balkans and Lewis Mackenzie who was accused of favoring the Serbs but based on his first hand accounts truly believes equal blame fell to the bosnians….and took a significant flack for it. But who would’ve done better? The states who according to Bush Sr “didn’t have a dog in that fight”….
sometimes 1000% solution is not available and that is why our peoples of leadership must be men of conscience and character.
the real question wrt Afghanistan is do we have that there now?
I think world peace begins with inspired and moral leadership. passage of information and self-less acts of kindness.
“Recent major military conflicts have also shown that indigenous populations have become quite adept at overwhelming what should be a superior occupying force.” Counter insurgency forces need not be superior in equipment or numbers to be successful. History is riddled with examples that show that only there determination be stronger to bend the will of the invading/occupying nation (Mau Mau, Vietnam, N.Ireland, Afghanistan, Iraq).
Hearts and minds Sean….the war is all for the hearts and minds not the untenable hill or coastline.
Finally:
Is Canada Dependant on the States for protection? Depending on the threat - militarily, the answer is yes. We cannot sustain nor defend the borders of Canada from a foreign military threat on our own with our current military. Though I think few nations could to tell you the truth…though there is of course now black and white answer to this as we could be the counter insurgency force.
Again I think our best defence as a nation is to be responsible and world leaders through example and that can be through foreign policy and including military actions taken abroad. (DART, Peace Keeping and select NATO missions).
I have a lot more but you said a mouthful and i want more cognac…so I’ll try and attack more of it in future posts. Thanks for reading…and if you called me Sir I must ask are you a current serving member?
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I didn’t intend to imply that our intent in the middle east is to deal death, but it is an almost guaranteed result in any conflict and I was trying to highlight the seriousness of the voter’s responsibility, as compared to other, more benign issues, like Quebec sovereignty or taxes.
I guess my question about people’s right to support something they don’t know anything about comes from picturing myself in the same situation as the Afghanis. I would want troops out of my country if I thought the management of the combat operation wasn’t in the hands of an educated public, but was instead under the de facto control of private interests. I am, however, aware that some of our most stirring civil rights movements occurred because the ignorant majority spoke with their hearts without knowing all the details.
“We cannot sustain nor defend the borders of Canada from a foreign military threat on our own with our current military.”
Sorry, I misrepresented the intent of that question. I never believed that Canada could hold back a force intent on invading our country, just that we could throw out any force intent on occupying us. My question is do we *need* their protection? I’ve no doubt that there are a handful of powerful militaries in this world capable of taking control of Canada. But realistically do any of them have a legitimate shot at subjugating us, even without America helping us throw the occupiers out? If China landed in BC tomorrow with the intent of taking our fresh water, I’m certain that between the Canadian people and the support of the European nations we’ve previously fought for, we could expel them without America’s help before the colour of our flag changed.
I call all my professors “sir” until they offer otherwise. Frankly I usually stick with pronouns on this site because I don’t entirely feel comfortable with using “Matt” or “Dale” towards people who are, basically, strangers offering to help me. The first line initially read “Mr. Pitt” but I didn’t think it was appropriate so I changed it. I am aware of the denotations, which is why I didn’t capitalize “sir.”
Sorry if I’ve been a little long winded. Since Mr. Good posted about your effort for Kid’s Play I have been looking forward to picking your brain on some of these issues.
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Wow. Great comment. Never mind the sir though… Someone starts calling me sir and i start checking my account to see if i’m getting paid….
(i’m not)
I don’t see China ever landing in BC in any other fashion than it already has. But I get your point.
“I would want troops out of my country if I thought the management of the combat operation wasn’t in the hands of an educated public, but was instead under the de facto control of private interests”
Probably. I think what many people find contentious to this point is that there are more than just cbt ops at this time. Some local villages and tribes have become quite resilient on the PRTs. It’s a tough balance.
I’m not saying the cbt ops are necessary, just that that is one of the prime arguments for maintaining them at this time.
You’re absolutely right though about ‘us’ going in w/o knowing all the details. Though I think Chretian knew enough about the resources of the casbian sea to okay the mission and see it’s longterm political benefits.
anyways…thanks for the comment and yeah Right To Play is a my favouite charity…anything that invovles sports is great. I ended up raising $2100 my last time around and my goal is to make that X10 next year,