The Violence Of Misunderstandings
First, from Reuters…
“The video — broadcast repeatedly on Canadian and U.S. television networks — showed Robert Dziekanski shrieking in agony after he was hit by 50,000-volt blasts at Vancouver International Airport a month ago.
“I’ve asked for a review relating to the use of Tasers … this is a tragic and grievous incident. We want to find out answers that can prevent these things from happening in the future,” Public Security Minister Stockwell Day told Parliament.
The video cast severe doubt on the official Royal Canadian Mounted Police account of the incident, which said officers fired Taser shots at Dziekanski after he became abusive.
The video, taken by a bystander at the airport, initially shows a sweating and upset Dziekanski throwing a small table at a window in the luggage retrieval section and shouting at airport staff. By the time a team of four police officers arrives, he has calmed down and is standing still.
Police then fired at least two shots from Taser stun guns at the 40-year-old man, who collapsed to the ground howling in pain. At least three policemen could then be seen kneeling on Dziekanski, who died shortly afterward.
Legislator Penny Priddy from the opposition New Democratic Party said “the screams of a dying man echo throughout the country” and said Canadians wanted answers before more lives were lost.
“Is it standard operating procedure for the RCMP to use Tasers when there is no obvious physical threat?” she asked Day in Parliament.
Poland’s ambassador to Canada said the video had deeply shocked him and said Warsaw wanted to learn all it could about an investigation the Mounties have launched into the case.
“The reaction of the RCMP officers was unsuitable to the situation. What I’ve seen was that Mr. Dziekanski (was) a person who was agitated, frustrated, I think terrified, but not aggressive. He was not making a gesture that he intended to fight anybody,” Piotr Ogrodzinski told Reuters.
“He didn’t know what to do. In fact, he was in search (of) help. That is why it is a really very sad and deeply moving film to watch.”
Dziekanski flew to Canada to live with his mother in the western Canadian city of Kamloops, British Columbia. She had told him to wait for her at the luggage belt. But this meant he never passed through the customs section to enter the main part of Vancouver’s airport, where she was waiting.
The left-leaning New Democratic Party said it was unhappy the Mounties were investigating the conduct of their own members.
“There is a litany of cases in which serious errors have been made when the police investigate themselves,” said spokesman Ian Capstick.
Earlier this year the Mounties in British Columbia were heavily criticized for their account of how a police officer shot and killed a young man who had been arrested in 2005 for holding an open can of beer at a sports game.
Dale Carr, an RCMP spokesman in Vancouver, said the officers involved in the Dziekanski case would testify under oath at a coroner’s inquest expected some time next year.”
When you come from Poland you speak Polish. Chances are you might know a little English, but that’s not always the case. For example – how many Canadians speak enough Polish to be understood in an airport in, for example, Warsaw? Interestingly, how many Canadians expect to be understood no matter where they go because the English-speaking world somehow feels a sense of entitlement that theirs is paramount to the universal language?
I challenge anyone reading this to travel to a country in which English is not the official language and expect to be completely understood. Having personally been to many different locations throughout the world in which English is not spoken, I can attest to the fact that the world as a whole is not capable of bursting into fluent English on demand.
The one exception to this rule is in international airports, where most of the customs officials that I have dealt with could either speak enough English to accommodate travelers from the English-speaking world or are able to defer them to someone within their ranks that does. Be it in Budapest, Vienna, Rome, Madrid, Paris, Berlin, Tokyo, or Beirut – the chances that there is someone working at immigration or customs that speaks passable English is pretty good. It is commonly only in the English speaking world that that rule does not apply.
At YVR, given the number of travelers from the Far East, it’s not uncommon to find those that are able to speak a variety of Chinese dialects, Japanese, Hindi, and so forth. The majority of those that immigrate to this city are commonly from such destinations, so it only stands to reason. That said, Vancouver is not limited to only receiving immigrants from Asia, it is also a destination for many others from around the globe – Poland included.
So let’s back up for a minute and look at what occurred at YVR with different eyes.
What if a Canadian man who was immigrating to Poland found himself in the same situation? Like it or not, the first thing that pops into ones head is that someone at that airport must surely speak English. You can, for the sake of argument, deny it - but you’d be lying. There is absolutely no question that the English speaking world feels entitled to being spoken to in their native language and that they need not attempt to speak the language of others. For proof of that just jump on a train, bus, or wander the streets of one of countless cities in Europe for a demonstration. Having witnessed it myself on numerous occasions, it’s rather embarrassing to watch North Americans get hot under the collar because someone that they’re addressing, in a foreign country no less, cannot understand them. The truly stunning part is that most of them believe that if they speak slower and louder that somehow the English language will magically make perfect sense.
That said; what would the reaction of Canadians be if a Canadian man were Tasered by Polish police 25 seconds after their arrival to confront him, ultimately resulting in his death?
Were a video taken of that incident, we, as English speaking people, would be able to understand everything that the Canadian on the tape was saying. In the case of what occurred at YVR, why hasn’t a translation of what Robert Dziekanski was saying throughout the video been aggressively pursued? Call me crazy, but there are probably some rather aghast Poles currently trying to make sense of why Dziekanski ended up dead.
After arriving on the scene, the RCMP confronted Dziekanski, a man that could not speak English, a man that had been in the airport for hours, and did not attempt to defuse the situation by employing body language or behaviour that suggested they were there to assist him. The situation was, unfortunately, approached as one of concluded criminality on the part of Dziekanski.
Going back to the hypothetical of a Canadian man being trapped in an airport in Poland, what would we expect him to do? The common answer, I’m guessing, is that most would think he would cooperate with the Polish police, not act erratically, and certainly not attempt to pick anything up off of a counter when they confronted him. But there again – that’s simply bias on our part. We live in a country in which the authorities, for the most part, represent a helping hand. Dziekanski, on the other hand, comes from a country in which the authorities have a history of being viewed as corrupt and militant. Thus, when confronted by the RCMP, his reaction is that of a Pole from a small village – which is to say that it probably caused him fear after he realized that the police were not there to assist him but rather confront him.
25 seconds later he was on the floor.
With regards to his reaction to being Tasered, many people believe that if a person is struggling that it represents that they are, in fact, a threat. The truth though is that every person on the planet, when placed in a situation in which they feel threatened, will fight back no matter who’s knee is pressed into their neck. It’s simply human nature, and applies just the same to anti-war protesters that speak perfect English as it does Poles that don’t.
So a man from a small village half way around the world got on a plane and traveled to a foreign country to start a new life with his mother. In the end, he was killed for what? For seemingly grabbing something off of a counter while being confronted by numerous police officers after spending hours in a foreign airport in which no one was obviously able, or willing, to assist him? There’s no question that Dziekanski’s behaviour was erratic, but I have seen behaviour far worse than his right out side of my own front door at night on the weekends, and those responsible do not wind up dead. They’re drunk, belligerent, loud, caustic, and quite often smash windows and cause other damage in a neighbourhood that they have traveled to from the suburbs or elsewhere, but none of them are killed because of it.
What is the role of the police in our society? Well, obviously to enforce laws. So what laws had Dziekanski broken? How about the destruction of property, which, given what is shown in the video, would have probably seen him charged with a misdemeanor. Unfortunately, resisting arrest can only be applied after he was Tasered, which means that there would be grounds for self-defense. And yes, despite what some might believe, there are instances in which self-defense is relevant against police officers.
This brings us to the question of - did Dziekanski pose a threat to those around him? Well, prior to the arrival of the police, and despite his erratic behaviour, he had hurt no one, nor had he made overtures to do so. Thus, it can’t be said that he posed an immediate threat. That being the case, why did the police treat the situation as if Dziekanski was a threat? Because let’s face facts – had they walked through those doors and simply smiled and extended a hand, perhaps things would have turned out much differently.
One of the paramount aspects of this incident is the automatic use of force by law enforcement as the first option of resolution, and it is one that has implications that reach far beyond this incident alone, directly into the reality of our society itself.
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November 15th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
that last paragraph fucking scares me.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:44 pm
Quoting Matt:Thus, when confronted by the RCMP, his reaction is that of a Pole from a small village – which is to say that it probably caused him fear after he realized that the police were not there to assist him but rather confront him.
I didn’t even think of that until right now.. That at first maybe he thought help was on it’s way. And then he realized otherwise. I can’t imagine the thoughts of fear that would be running through me the second I realize no one was going to help me.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
“This brings us to the question of - did Dziekanski pose a threat to those around him? Well, prior to the arrival of the police, and despite his erratic behaviour, he had hurt no one, nor had he made overtures to do so. Thus, it can’t be said that he posed an immediate threat. That being the case, why did the police treat the situation as if Dziekanski was a threat? Because let’s face facts – had they walked through those doors and simply smiled and extended a hand, perhaps things would have turned out much differently.”
Sorry I’m not up to speed on whether he spoke a word of English? Did he speak any?
If not, were they just going on his body language?
If so, did he say something horribly offensive to them to make them taser him? Because his actions seemed more calm when they arrived….
Is there anything on tape of what the man ’said’ to them? Can anyone read from afar what he was saying without sound? I’m very curious.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Does anyone know what happened prior to this incident in the airport? Not only does he look extremely agitated, but his breathing is fairly labored.
I asked my friend Kasia (who speaks Polish) to listen to the video to see what he was saying. The audio is fairly bad and she couldn’t make much out, but at around 1:30 into it he’s complaining about not being allowed to do something.
She also said had they brought a Russian interpreter (which is what they were trying to do), it is likely that that person could have communicated enough with Robert to figure out what was wrong.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
This makes me so ANGRY…. so they taser him before even knowing what he was saying? MY GOD.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
As has been pointed out before, people are quick to overlook the fact that Mr. Dziekanski picked up some sort of long metal object shortly before he was taken down by police. I only really noticed this today on CNN when I watched it on the larger TV, but the fact of the matter remains that we can’t see everything that happened, especially on a small computer monitor with the suspect’s back turned to us.
If you want to play the ‘hypothetical’ game though, I’m down.
November 15th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
[quote comment="33174"]As has been pointed out before, people are quick to overlook the fact that Mr. Dziekanski picked up some sort of long metal object shortly before he was taken down by police. I only really noticed this today on CNN when I watched it on the larger TV, but the fact of the matter remains that we can’t see everything that happened, especially on a small computer monitor with the suspect’s back turned to us.
If you want to play the ‘hypothetical’ game though, I’m down.[/quote]
I saw this on a 52 incher last night. I saw alot..
November 15th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
There’s no question there was an overreaction on the part of police, but you have to wonder where it comes from. Is it simply poor training? When those officers were first handed taser guns, were they told “This is considered non-lethal force, so go nuts”?
Were the officers just trigger-happy? Forgive me for saying so, but British Columbia strikes me as the most “American” of the Canadian provinces. Maybe that gun-nut mentality is seeping up from the border. Large areas of the US west coast seem to be pretty crime-ridden, maybe that infection is spreading. I’ve never spent any substantial amount of time in British Columbia, though, so I’m basing this on general, probably mistaken, impressions. But you have to admit, every time British Columbia is in the news these days, it sure ain’t happy news.
Based on what I’ve read here and elsewhere, though, you know what I think? I think it was tedium. I think those RCMP officers deal with mentally unstable people on the street on such a regular basis that they thought this was just a routine call, clean up the garbage, get it done and get out. I imagine 50,000 volts hits people in dark alleyways all the time, to be honest. (I don’t mean to imply this is done in a sadistic manner, but simply as a first resort.)
The fact that it never occured to those officers that they were in an airport and the treatment of this man might spark an international incident (which it has) is disturbing in itself. I understand that police officers are fallible and can make mistakes, but I don’t feel this was mere misjudgement. This was a serious overreaction, and it deserves serious punishment.
November 15th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
“and did not attempt to defuse the situation by employing body language or behaviour that suggested they were there to assist him. The situation was, unfortunately, approached as one of concluded criminality on the part of Dziekanski.”
Exactly how I see it (and thanks for spelling defuse correctly - I thought it looked wrong in my posts).
The entire issue with me is that they approached this man in a manner that he probably interpreted as intimidating and threatening, which only served to escalate things even further. Wasn’t the ultimate goal to get things settled down and insure everyone’s safety (including this man’s)? I don’t see how surrounding him and giving him orders that he couldn’t understand would accomplish that. Had there been a smile, an extended hand or something of that nature I’m confident it might have done what the spoken word failed to - reassure him that someone was going to help him and calmed things down. And I honestly think that if that route had been taken this could’ve ended a lot more peacefully and without a mother mourning her son.
Although the police have to gain control of a situation, using empathy and understanding can often go a long way in accomplishing this without having to resort to strongarm tactics. As a matter of fact, those brute force methods usually don’t do much to “settle things down” - yes, they get things under control, but the cost is much too high when someone dies.
November 15th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
I posted a lengthy comment on the earlier post.
For those of you who don’t like scrolling I’ll repeat a few things I saw on the video that troubled me.
I saw an RCMP Constable with his hand on his gun as the four approached Dziekanski.
I saw four Constables corner Dziekanski.
Very aggressive moves against somebody who was obviously distraught.
I mentioned a case some years ago in the U.S. where a man was aquitted of killing an on-duty police officer after his lawyer succesfully argued to a jury that his client feared for his life due to the actions of the police officer.
November 15th, 2007 at 5:59 pm
[quote comment="33172"]Does anyone know what happened prior to this incident in the airport?
Not only does he look extremely agitated, but his breathing is fairly labored.
I asked my friend Kasia (who speaks Polish) to listen to the video to see what he was saying. The audio is fairly bad and she couldn’t make much out, but at around 1:30 into it he’s complaining about not being allowed to do something.
She also said had they brought a Russian interpreter (which is what they were trying to do), it is likely that that person could have communicated enough with Robert to figure out what was wrong.[/quote]
The news hour here is about to report on what he was saying. It’ll be interesting to learn, although it’s sad that it won’t help this man now.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Firstly, i want to say that it was terrible this man died. I feel for his mother, but that being said:
I travelled for a month in the Czech Republic and Slovakia. In the Czech they spoke english, but mostly in Prague. In Slovakia, they spoke no english. No one my girlfriend and i met spoke any english. The only thing that saved us was menues with english for the food. Travelling by train and bus, there was nothing. The border guards into Slovakia spoke no english, and honestly, everyone in Slovakia could tell we were westerners. It did not cause us to lose our cool and start bashing things about, even when it looked like the Slovakian border guards were going to steal our passports. It has nothing to do with anglo-centrism at all. If uniformed officers in Poland approached me, i would do as they indicated - if they spoke no english, and i couldn’t speak their language, then i would simply stand still. I’m sorry, but its not an excuse to say, he was foreign and didnt speak our langauge. Cops are cops all over the planet. Grabbing a weapon is the same all over.
The air port should have handled this situation better, but the RCMP went into it knowing what little they were told. There should have been a translator there, but the police seemed fine with just containing the man. As i said before, they were bunched together talking to him when he threw up his hands and walked away. Then they spread out around him. He appeared to grab something and then he was tasered.
I am sorry, this is not an incident of police overreaction. From what the video clearly shows, these officers do not deserve punishment. I am leaving now because watching all of this “horror” from people without any knowledge of what is going on is making me angry.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
I am a long time fan and lurker of your site and music, this is my first post.
I too was once involved at Pearson Intl. in a similar yet totallly different circumstance of misunderstanding with a security person. A yelling match resulted resulted in Peel Region Police and Airport SWAT were called in. In my case, English was used but unfortunately not understood by Airport staff. The guard, after the altercation explained her points to the police, arms waving in the air, screaming and cursing. I stood there emotion-less. After 20 mins I was able to board my flight (Jetsgo’s maiden voyage to Vancouver, ironically) and all was well. I learned that something like this can happen to anyone at any time and escalate to serious matter in mere moments.
I am a Canadian, of Polish decent, and also hold my British Citizenship thanks to my father sacrificing his life for the RAF in WW II. I am bilingual, a member of the media her in Toronto and wish to God I was at that airport.
I have, and always will, take the time and help a brother, whether he be Polish, Chinesse, German or any race or nationality.
The RCMP, the Vancouver Airport Authority and the Canadian Government have failed misearably in this matter. I am a grown man, of your age and I am at the point of tears as I write this.
I am ashamed to be a Canadian Citizen.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
Dale McShannock, perhaps what you perceive as ” “horror” from people without any knowledge of what is going on” are reactions based upon the *exact same* video that you watched and are basing your own opinions upon.
…
Perhaps not though; if you have any further insight into this situation to offer, there are several separate investigations going on right now and I am sure that they could always use additional witness testimony.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
[quote comment="33183"]Firstly, i want to say that it was terrible this man died. I feel for his mother, but that being said:
I travelled for a month in the Czech Republic and Slovakia. In the Czech they spoke english, but mostly in Prague. In Slovakia, they spoke no english. No one my girlfriend and i met spoke any english. The only thing that saved us was menues with english for the food. Travelling by train and bus, there was nothing. The border guards into Slovakia spoke no english, and honestly, everyone in Slovakia could tell we were westerners. It did not cause us to lose our cool and start bashing things about, even when it looked like the Slovakian border guards were going to steal our passports. It has nothing to do with anglo-centrism at all. If uniformed officers in Poland approached me, i would do as they indicated - if they spoke no english, and i couldn’t speak their language, then i would simply stand still. I’m sorry, but its not an excuse to say, he was foreign and didnt speak our langauge. Cops are cops all over the planet. Grabbing a weapon is the same all over.
The air port should have handled this situation better, but the RCMP went into it knowing what little they were told. There should have been a translator there, but the police seemed fine with just containing the man. As i said before, they were bunched together talking to him when he threw up his hands and walked away. Then they spread out around him. He appeared to grab something and then he was tasered.
I am sorry, this is not an incident of police overreaction. From what the video clearly shows, these officers do not deserve punishment. I am leaving now because watching all of this “horror” from people without any knowledge of what is going on is making me angry.[/quote]
Were you detained for 10 hours? You see, unless you’ve walked in this man’s shoes, you don’t know how you’d react or what he’d been through. And yes, he was out of control and needed to be stopped - but you’re missing the point. It was just said best on the news by a Civil Liberties spokesperson: ” The police are using last resorts first”. These methods being used by police should only be when all else fail - and I’m afraid it didn’t appear to happen that way in this case.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
CBC radio is reporting that the officers seen kneeling on Mr. Dziekanskis back when he’s down are in violation of the law.
Also where was any airport support staff, from what I understand Mr. Dziekanski spent hours in the secure area before becoming agitated. If staff had been observant they would have noticed something was wrong long before it became neccessary to call in the RCMP. There’s some pretty big cracks in the service at YVR.
I also doubt letting the RCMP investigate this case is going to be constructive.Const. Paul Koester who shot Ian Bush in Houston in 2005 is now posted in the town I live near. There are still some important questions about how a young man who was in brought in after being caught drinking outside an arena could end up dead soon after with a bullet in his head. Blood spatter evidence contradicts Koesters story, but there’s not much chance he’ll face any charges.
We need more oversite on the mounties, especially now when they resort to force much more readily than they have in the past.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
1) Xian B: If you think BC is the most “American” province in Canada, you have never spent any time in Nelson, BC. Or Brooks, Alberta.
2) I work for the news media in Kamloops, the home of Dziekanski’s grief-stricken mother. We have been covering this story closely since the day of the incident. A couple of things have struck me:
a) Dziekanski had apparently quit smoking cold turkey a day before boarding the flight to Canada. This combined with spending something like 12 hours on a flight - eating who knows what - PLUS spending 10 hours in the airport eating nothing has me convinced of one thing: his body chemistry must have been completely messed up. This certainly would have contributed to his behaviour, and probably contributed to his death.
b) The police response was ridiculous. Dziekanski did not pose an imminent threat to four RCMP officers.
c) If someone notices a discarded duffle bag within moments of it being left in an airport and immediately calls the bomb squad to detonate it, how can someone FAIL to notice a confused grown man for 10 hours? Or if he was noticed, fail to find him the help he needs simply to communicate?
There is a lot of blame to thrown around here.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:48 pm
Here’s a question….
WHAT WOULD THE POLICE HAVE DONE, HAD THEY NOT HAD THE USE OF A TAZER???
Why do we hear one of the officers offer it’s use within seconds of arriving at the scene?
How long does it take to prepare a tazer for firing? They shot him within 24 seconds…. someone should subtract and do the math. I think they’ll confirm that the RCMP officers thought to use the tazer before they even tried ANYTHING else. No negotiation, no calming, no human decency.
A shame, a sad and foolish shame.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:56 pm
[quote comment="33183"]Cops are cops all over the planet. Grabbing a weapon is the same all over.[/quote]
Wow. Cops are cops all over the planet. Which planet are you speaking of? That planet in which police states and corruption don’t exist?
I was raised to respect the police and I know several police officers whom I respect very much. However, with all of these incidents (the taser deaths, the shooting of that kid who was drinking at a game) in recent history it makes law-abiding members of the public fearful and distrustful.
On top of the tragic death of Mr. Dziekanski there is an unbelievable lack of accountability. At the very least there needs to be an independent commission to investigate such deaths. I only wish I was allowed to mark my own exams, or decide whether I deserve a speeding ticket.
November 15th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
Unfortunately the training given to RCMP recruits no longer lives up to the forces reputation and tradition. Many new members are trained locally instead of in Regina now due to cutbacks and often don’t even complete that training before being posted.
I know I’m a lot more nervous around the mounties now, especially with Const. Paul Koester riding around the community in a patrol car.
November 15th, 2007 at 7:09 pm
There it is again: The left-leaning New Democratic Party
November 15th, 2007 at 7:35 pm
[quote comment="33181"]I posted a lengthy comment on the earlier post.
For those of you who don’t like scrolling I’ll repeat a few things I saw on the video that troubled me.
I saw an RCMP Constable with his hand on his gun as the four approached Dziekanski.
I saw four Constables corner Dziekanski.
Very aggressive moves against somebody who was obviously distraught.
I mentioned a case some years ago in the U.S. where a man was aquitted of killing an on-duty police officer after his lawyer succesfully argued to a jury that his client feared for his life due to the actions of the police officer.[/quote]
So the member had his hand on his gun? And? So four guys went to the call of the crazy guy causing some sort of disturbance? And?
Only in the States could something like that be successfully argued (and I would be interested to know if it was overturned on appeal and what the particular facts were).
The way our system is set up, as I’m sure you are aware, is you obey the police at the moment of arrest. You do not argue and fight at that point, that’s what the trial is for. If you do not comply, and the police are acting in good faith and with reasonable and probable grounds to arrest (in their mind, anyway) then you submit. If you do not, then the police are justified in using as much force as is reasonably necessary. I am disappointed that you would need this explained since you claim to have 20 years of law enforcement experience.
November 15th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
[quote comment="33194"]Unfortunately the training given to RCMP recruits no longer lives up to the forces reputation and tradition. Many new members are trained locally instead of in Regina now due to cutbacks and often don’t even complete that training before being posted.
I know I’m a lot more nervous around the mounties now, especially with Const. Paul Koester riding around the community in a patrol car.[/quote]
What are you talking about? All new members go through Depot at Regina and they complete the training. I’m sure you are refering to Chilliwack and that is where supplemental training is taken.
And KOESTER did nothing wrong. You may want to get a look at the Inquest file and the description of the events surrounding the death of Ian BUSH. Nervous, are you seriously suggesting that he intentionally killed BUSH? That he would pick someone at random and kill them? I can’t believe what I’m reading…
November 15th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
The information I’ve been given by people I know in enforcement, is that only half the force is trained in Regina now and the rest at facilities like the Justice Institute in Chilliwack. Maybe I got it wrong.
According to Koester he shot Ian Bush while being held in a neck lock, the blood spatter evidence however indicates he was to the side or behind Bush which seems much more plausible to me considering that Bush was shot in the back of the head. We’ll never know because Koester was alone and there was no video. I don’t think Koester killed Bush on purpose, I do think RCMP members lack the professionalism they used to have. They resort to the gun or the taser way to fast for my comfort.
There was also a shooting incident just north of here a few years ago where once again a lone officer got into a struggle with an unarmed man who he had handcuffed.
It’s time there was an independent oversite to the RCMP, even if officers aren’t being protected by their own force there’s an appearance of conflict is there.
November 15th, 2007 at 7:55 pm
I like how they use the bigger number when trying to talk to people about tasers.
“50 000 Volts!”
“wow that’s alot!”
It doesn’t sound as bad as the 2 milliamps it outputs, which is what does the harm to the human body.
November 15th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
“One of the paramount aspects of this incident is the automatic use of force by law enforcement as the first option of resolution, and it is one that has implications that reach far beyond this incident alone, directly into the reality of our society itself.”
YES. Thank you.
I actually heard some reporter on CNN this morning cite some study that said (paraphrasing): “of the 250-odd Taser Gun related deaths, there is no evidence to suggest they were in any way caused by Taser Guns. More likely, the subjects fell after being tasered, and hit their head on something, etc.”
ARE YOU KIDDING ME.
Twist your logic some more why don’t you. It’s like that scene from Collateral: “I didn’t kill him, the bullets and the fall killed him.”
November 15th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
Dale: It’s amazing what even the slightest panic attack will do to your level of reasoning and of being able to rationally assess a situation. I’m not saying that’s what happened to this man, but clearly he was extremely distraught, and it’s been mentioned many times he was in the airport for 10 hours or so. We can’t simply say “he should have done this” or “not have done that.” He wasn’t acting from a position of subdued, somber thought. For some unknown reason he was acting in this manner, and even still, he presented no clear threat - certainly nothing that four RCMP officers couldn’t have handled without guns of ANY kind.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
If the Taser didn’t provide a massive shock to the system it wouldn’t be used. For most people it probably won’t prove fatal, but for people with pychological problems it can cause them to become more aggressive or even physical harm. It’s not the benign tool that some people like to claim.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
I haven’t watched the video. I’m not sure I want to. So I can’t comment on the specifics of this incident. But I agree with Matt’s last paragraph. It says a lot about today’s society. One has to wonder if such an abuse of force would have occured outside the airport. It would appear that we have been successfully terrorized since 9/11. So much so, that we feel justified in acting on that fear no matter the consequences. It appears we are on the road to forgetting about what made this part of the world so great in light of protecting it.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
“The way our system is set up, as I’m sure you are aware, is you obey the police at the moment of arrest. You do not argue and fight at that point, that’s what the trial is for. If you do not comply, and the police are acting in good faith and with reasonable and probable grounds to arrest (in their mind, anyway) then you submit. If you do not, then the police are justified in using as much force as is reasonably necessary.”
And here is where we pinpoint the exact debate here. No one is debating “obeying” the police. Not one person. What the discussion is about is the use of force.
“as much force is reasonably necessary”
That is the crux of it all. Because we’ve been talking about just that. What constitutes reasonable force. I won’t even mention that in order to obey the police one has to be able to understand what the hell they are saying to begin with. Or that the police forces in other countries may not have the same sort of standards that Canadian forces are supposed to, and many citizens of other countries may view police intervention differently than Joe Average Canadian.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
[quote comment="33206"]If the Taser didn’t provide a massive shock to the system it wouldn’t be used. For most people it probably won’t prove fatal, but for people with pychological problems it can cause them to become more aggressive or even physical harm. It’s not the benign tool that some people like to claim.[/quote]
The Taser operates on Electro-Musuclar Disruption, it “freezes”, if you will, all your muscles and locks you up so you can’t move. The way that the man in the video was rolling around makes it unlikely that it was properly deployed.
There are two modes: Touch/Stun which is pain compliance (it just hurts) and the probe-mode where the EMD comes into play. But it must be adequately spaced apart to create the circuit in order for it to work properly. It is absolutely not a benign tool, rather, it is a use of force option.
And, as stated on another entry, it is “Less Lethal”, not “Non Lethal”.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:22 pm
[quote comment="33198"][quote comment="33181"]I posted a lengthy comment on the earlier post.
For those of you who don’t like scrolling I’ll repeat a few things I saw on the video that troubled me.
I saw an RCMP Constable with his hand on his gun as the four approached Dziekanski.
I saw four Constables corner Dziekanski.
Very aggressive moves against somebody who was obviously distraught.
I mentioned a case some years ago in the U.S. where a man was aquitted of killing an on-duty police officer after his lawyer succesfully argued to a jury that his client feared for his life due to the actions of the police officer.[/quote]
So the member had his hand on his gun? And? So four guys went to the call of the crazy guy causing some sort of disturbance? And?
Only in the States could something like that be successfully argued (and I would be interested to know if it was overturned on appeal and what the particular facts were).
The way our system is set up, as I’m sure you are aware, is you obey the police at the moment of arrest. You do not argue and fight at that point, that’s what the trial is for. If you do not comply, and the police are acting in good faith and with reasonable and probable grounds to arrest (in their mind, anyway) then you submit. If you do not, then the police are justified in using as much force as is reasonably necessary. I am disappointed that you would need this explained since you claim to have 20 years of law enforcement experience.[/quote]
This wasn’t a person familiar with our system however. He was coming from half the world away, didn’t understand our customs and was unable to communicate with anyone for hours. In the state of mind he was in he probably didn’t understand the intentions of the officers approaching him and instead of de-escalating the tension there, they increased it then used what ultimately became deadly force. Mr. Dziekanski wasn’t posing an immediate threat to anyone and another approach could have been taken. Maybe this is the way the officers were accustomed to acting on the street but this was an international arrivals terminal. If they’d had more expertice they would have found another way than immediately tasering the man.
My opinion of the RCMP has been going down steadily in the last few years and this just adds to it.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:23 pm
[quote comment="33205"]Dale: It’s amazing what even the slightest panic attack will do to your level of reasoning and of being able to rationally assess a situation. I’m not saying that’s what happened to this man, but clearly he was extremely distraught, and it’s been mentioned many times he was in the airport for 10 hours or so. We can’t simply say “he should have done this” or “not have done that.” He wasn’t acting from a position of subdued, somber thought. For some unknown reason he was acting in this manner, and even still, he presented no clear threat - certainly nothing that four RCMP officers couldn’t have handled without guns of ANY kind.[/quote]
No clear threat to you.
And had the Taser not been deployed, the situation as I saw it would still have resulted in a dog-pile and possibly with the same outcome.
The taser is not the issue, police worked without it before and people died resisting arrest. It is a sad reality but reality nonetheless.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Dziekanski must have been terrified, what a terrible way to have your life ended.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:29 pm
[quote comment="33210"][quote comment="33206"]If the Taser didn’t provide a massive shock to the system it wouldn’t be used. For most people it probably won’t prove fatal, but for people with pychological problems it can cause them to become more aggressive or even physical harm. It’s not the benign tool that some people like to claim.[/quote]
The Taser operates on Electro-Musuclar Disruption, it “freezes”, if you will, all your muscles and locks you up so you can’t move. The way that the man in the video was rolling around makes it unlikely that it was properly deployed.
There are two modes: Touch/Stun which is pain compliance (it just hurts) and the probe-mode where the EMD comes into play. But it must be adequately spaced apart to create the circuit in order for it to work properly. It is absolutely not a benign tool, rather, it is a use of force option.
And, as stated on another entry, it is “Less Lethal”, not “Non Lethal”.[/quote]
I know “it’s the amps that kill you” with electical shock, but hitting anyone with that much energy can have unforseen consequences.
I’m old enough to remember a time when the mounties took pride in often being able to defuse a situation without violence, it’s sad those days seem to be gone.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:35 pm
[quote comment="33212"][quote comment="33205"]Dale: It’s amazing what even the slightest panic attack will do to your level of reasoning and of being able to rationally assess a situation. I’m not saying that’s what happened to this man, but clearly he was extremely distraught, and it’s been mentioned many times he was in the airport for 10 hours or so. We can’t simply say “he should have done this” or “not have done that.” He wasn’t acting from a position of subdued, somber thought. For some unknown reason he was acting in this manner, and even still, he presented no clear threat - certainly nothing that four RCMP officers couldn’t have handled without guns of ANY kind.[/quote]
No clear threat to you.
And had the Taser not been deployed, the situation as I saw it would still have resulted in a dog-pile and possibly with the same outcome.
The taser is not the issue, police worked without it before and people died resisting arrest. It is a sad reality but reality nonetheless.[/quote]
There’s no certainty in this situation, I think with four officers in place the smart move would have been to make sure the man didn’t leave and find someone who could talk to him. Like I say it’s become way to acceptable to shoot first (even with tasers) and ask questions later. Most of the time it’s not going to be fatal but there is a real risk.
This isn’t just an airport, it’s the entrance to Canada for many people who are coming here for the the first time. There should be a level of sensitivity on the part of both the airport staff and enforcement officers that seems sadly lacking in this case.
This sends such a poor message about what kind of society Canada is becoming.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
So I’m confused; are we mad that the police tasered him? or are we mad that the police killed him? Cause there are two very diffrent things. Being tasared isn’t nessisarily deadly. Had it been a diffrent person, or if phsically he was in a better state of his life, he could have walked away from it, and if that were the case, would we be still be as outraged as we are now?
November 15th, 2007 at 8:46 pm
Hey Helpmejebus
I don’t think YOU understand the U.S. system. The prosecution can’t appeal an aquittal
November 15th, 2007 at 8:47 pm
I can’t believe those police didn’t have enough common sense to get a translator or at least not taser the poor guy. I think the taser should only be used in the same types of situations where a gun would be used. As we saw here, the taser has the possibility to kill people! The investigation will probably say that it wasn’t the taser that killed him. They will probably blame it on poor health. If that’s the case, they should only taser young and fit individuals…
Welcome to Canada, ZAP!
November 15th, 2007 at 8:56 pm
Did anyone else notice the downward thrust made by one of the officers with his baton after the others gathered around Mr. Dziekanski on the floor? It was in the vicinity of his head. As the view was obstructed, I cannot determine whether or not the baton made contact with the individual’s skull; conversely, I can see no other reason why the officer would make such a motion with his baton.
If this was discussed already in the previous post, I apologize for the repetition.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
Well said, Matt.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
I am a Police officer and I condone the actions of the Police officers. With information received that a male was throwing desks and luggage around he is immediately a threat to patrons and Police. I know he doesn’t speak English so the best way to deal with the irate man is to control him and make sure he cant harm anyone else. He did have a stapler in his had and may have used it as a weapon. I know your going to say, its just a stapler but let me throw one at your head and see if it hurts. I have been tasered and it dose hurt but it only lasts 5 seconds Max.. and as soon as its over the pain is gone no ill effects. Its like a Dr Ho massager x1000. I know it looks bad when 5 guys get on top of a male on the floor but that is what it takes, a average male can still get up with two officers on him if not controlled properly. Their job at the end of the day is to go home. We don’t fight fair and I’m ok with that, you want fair fight go watch the UFC cause we are not cage fighters we will use 5 guys to control the situation. The male was not punched or kicked he was tasered and restrained. I feel very sad that this man lost his life and I do feel for the family. This would never have occurred if this male was able to control himself. If i went to Poland and did the same thing I’m sure my treatment would be much more sever.
Police have a very difficult job and deal with the worst of society, we cant assume everyone is a good guy because our lives are on the line. What would you do if you the Police……
November 15th, 2007 at 9:43 pm
I had commented on the previous article about this situation and just wanted to add that not only do i think there has to be reform to the way officer’s are trained- ie. in dealing with situations with using tasers, or the dichotomy of whethr to use force or not to…..I also think the airport officials themselves have to face lift the way they deal with these types of situations.
I mean, so this guy happened to be an agitated foreign man looking for help. In another situation, he could have also been a guy going into diabetic shock, for example. GIven his situation of being detained for several hours on end- i think I would be losing my marbles too. I may have a acted in a more composed fashion but if I was put in a world where noone understood me- i would be exceptionally anxious. Going back to my hypothetical situation- just another example as an add on to Matthews’.
What if this person was of another culture still or even a Canadian who spoke English.. Perhaps they were not going through immigration but had a medical condition like diabetes or something. Maybe they forgot to take their meds that day or hadn’t been able to eat for hours on end and they went into a shock. They might look like they are under the influence, slur their speech, act erractic, become delirus, agitated and even violent. Would anyone have helped them? Would the situation turn out similarly to that of the Polish man’s or not? What if they were unable to communicate? Would medical and security services be called. you would think.
In the case of this man though- airport security didn’t send a medic, a translator, a mediator to communicate through body language- nothing. In fact, when the man saw the police coming- he became calm. I think he assumed they were there to help him.
How ironic.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:46 pm
Getting tired of the back and forth and I still refuse to comment directly to this incident. I will say one thing though: If people would stop shooting and injuring Police then maybe they wouldn’t be so “on edge” as they have been…
I know, he didn’t have a gun, like I said I’m not commenting directly to this topic so before I start getting crucified shush up.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:28 pm
Im probably gunna get a whole lot of flack for this but since some people are on the topic of bush… why do people hate bush so much anyways?!?!? …. its not like we can let terrorists fly planes into the twin towers and just let them get away with it??? obviously those terrorists are royally fucked in the head…. sorry for my language… but come on??? we had to do something about it!!
why are people so brain washed?!?!? i guess thats the way screwed up people are. its not like you could change someone like Jeffrey Dahmer… i guess that answers my question.
but do people actually believe that the whole 9-11 thing was planned by the government??? and that someone put bombs in the twin towers and thats why the towers crumbled??? get over it people, the government had NOTHING to do with it…
anyways… i dont get it.. no one ever will
November 15th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
[quote comment="33237"]Im probably gunna get a whole lot of flack for this but since some people are on the topic of bush… why do people hate bush so much anyways?!?!? …. its not like we can let terrorists fly planes into the twin towers and just let them get away with it??? obviously those terrorists are royally fucked in the head…. sorry for my language… but come on??? we had to do something about it!!
on the other hand…. yes im young.. no i dont follow political things and what not.. but why war?? no one wants to die..no one wants to stand on their land with a gun waiting for someone to invade it?? why cant they just be like “hey i dont wanna die, u dont wanna die.. lets make a deal??” ya far fetched i know.
why are people so brain washed?!?!? i guess thats the way screwed up people are. its not like you could change someone like Jeffrey Dahmer… i guess that answers my question.
but do people actually believe that the whole 9-11 thing was planned by the government??? and that someone put bombs in the twin towers and thats why the towers crumbled??? get over it people, the government had NOTHING to do with it… common sence….
anyways… i dont get it.. i dont follow that crap.. nothing can be done about it…[/quote]
I read an article from Popular Mechanics that, quite convincingly, proves it was not a setup with bombs and all that. It includes the Pentagon hit.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
The one problem with Bush’s approach is that he violates every book on counter-terrorism. You do it quietly and with a lot of research to ensure you are correct and the information is correct and thus your decisions will be correct.
They kinda didn’t and are not doing that with this War on Terror.
There is an excellent article in the guardian that summarizes Afghanistan and the differences between Al-Qaeda and Taliban and why they do what they do and how they deviate from the teachings of Muhammad, etc… It also explains that they don’t run around with bombs strapped to their backs looking for Westerners. They only react this way because it is all they know and because someone from the West has removed them from power or imprisoned their leader or killed their families. And other reasons.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,,2190873,00.html
It’s long but a really interesting read.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:45 pm
ericamiller: Where is the logic in dismantling the very freedoms terrorists are said to loathe and target - yourself? Is that not cutting off your legs simply so the man you owe money does not break them?
Simplistic, yes, but that’s always the way I’ve seen it.
That does not mean we bend over for terrorists and criminals. In security there can be diligence, no question, but there should rarely be infringement - many would say there should never be infringement. But either way you slice it, infringement upon civil liberties has been part and parcel to official US War On Terror policies since 9-11, and that goes against everything that country was founded in fear of - arbitrary authority.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:49 pm
good point… never looked at it that way…
but… just say.. take war for instance… why do two sides gotta fight.. why bring guns and bombs and tanks? why cant people make deals anymore?!?!? is it really that hard to get people to listen know a days and figure something out?? how to make two sides happy?
November 15th, 2007 at 10:52 pm
these days, if theres one place on earth were the majortiy of people are on edge. The airport. Unfortunitly the man didnt seem to have known this.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:16 pm
[quote comment="33231"]I know he doesn’t speak English so the best way to deal with the irate man is to control him and make sure he cant harm anyone else.[/quote]
He didn’t hurt anyone in the first place, therein lies the difference.
[quote comment="33231"]What would you do if you the Police[/quote]
You mean if i were confronting a Polish man with a stapler in his hands along with four other trained professional police officers? I’d use physical force to restrain him. That’s your job. Fire fighters run into burning buildings, that’s what they sign up to do. Not just collect a pension.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:31 pm
[quote comment="33231"]I am a Police officer and I condone the actions of the Police officers. With information received that a male was throwing desks and luggage around he is immediately a threat to patrons and Police. I know he doesn’t speak English so the best way to deal with the irate man is to control him and make sure he cant harm anyone else. He did have a stapler in his had and may have used it as a weapon. I know your going to say, its just a stapler but let me throw one at your head and see if it hurts. I have been tasered and it dose hurt but it only lasts 5 seconds Max.. and as soon as its over the pain is gone no ill effects. Its like a Dr Ho massager x1000. I know it looks bad when 5 guys get on top of a male on the floor but that is what it takes, a average male can still get up with two officers on him if not controlled properly. Their job at the end of the day is to go home. We don’t fight fair and I’m ok with that, you want fair fight go watch the UFC cause we are not cage fighters we will use 5 guys to control the situation. The male was not punched or kicked he was tasered and restrained. I feel very sad that this man lost his life and I do feel for the family. This would never have occurred if this male was able to control himself. If i went to Poland and did the same thing I’m sure my treatment would be much more sever.
Police have a very difficult job and deal with the worst of society, we cant assume everyone is a good guy because our lives are on the line. What would you do if you the Police……[/quote]
And you can’t assume everyone’s a bad guy either. Somehow, in the process of things, you owe it to the public to determine this during an incident. And I don’t know that any kind of evaluation or assessment was done during this one - it was just move in and get it done. But part of that process needs to be the “intervention”, the attempt to use other means to defuse the situation. Not just surround and subdue - that should be when all else has failed. And, yes, your lives are on the line in doing so - you know that when you sign up for the job. It is a thankless job at times but it has to be done in the best interest of the public, not just the officers. What if someone has an epileptic fit? How do you distinguish between something like that and, say, a drug induced frenzy? Do you treat them the same? What is the process that you use in determining exactly what the situation is? Or do you act first and ask questions later? That doesn’t seem to work in every situation - if it is, in fact, a medical emergency, then it could be too late.
It’s a delicate thing and, personally, I think that the police are too quick to jump the gun (or Taser). Yes, their lives are at stake but it doesn’t mean that they have the right to end others so quickly and without exhausting all other avenues….they obviously have been trained and must put their training to work in these situations.
I’m done on this - have said way too much already. I know what my stance is and it won’t change.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:51 pm
This isn’t about protocol, or proceedures. The fact of the matter is that Robert Dziekanski died. His last ten hours of life were spent in a place foreign to him, and he was alone. If anyone at that airport had helped this man, he would be alive today.
It is disturbing that anyone would attempt to justify the actions of the RCMP at this point. Is this the Canadian compassion we want to show the world, “sorry about your son, shit happens.”
If the Canadian public does not demand that the RCMP be accountable for the results of their actions, then we are consenting to further use of violence in place of mediation.
My heart goes out to Robert Dziekanski’s mother, because she is forced to live with the consequences of that day.
November 16th, 2007 at 12:01 am
Honestly, if you aren’t a police officer, do not assume what their protocol is. They did not mean to kill him so again, do not assume so. Tired of this damn topic already, too many people assuming they know things they don’t, that’s why I’ve been silent for the most part. I know I’m going to catch a lot of shit for this, but shit DOES happen. You’re driving your car and all of a sudden someone jumps out in front of you, shit happens. However tragic it may be, it happens. *covers his ears and waits for the yelling*
November 16th, 2007 at 12:21 am
lol wut?? this guy had a stapler and thats why the police tasered him?!?!?!? uhh…. oh my god thats too funny. Not literally, you know what i mean.
ok… that was crossing the line big time!!! its funny how policemen can get away with anything. and people know they can, no denying it.
Dont even think of using 9-11 as an excuse for their bad behavior people!!!
November 16th, 2007 at 12:30 am
OK honestly im having a hard time trying to figure this out… if this guy had a stapler….do u think a terrorist would hold a stapler in his hand as a threat!!?!??!?! probably not … i dunno if this guy even had a stapler.. im just quoting someone else…
BUT then again…..and even i cant escape this….after 9-11…..people are in more fear…and hey im not here to cut corners…this guy that died was a certain color and race.. that portrayed the terrorists of 9-11 (im just being honest here and we all know that)… so who knows wut those police were thinking…
wut would u guys do… after 9-11 and were faced with this situation?? its easy to sit here and say just like i did “ya.. it was bad, he didnt do nothing” but, i thought about this for a while….u know that saying “you are what you eat” ?? …well.. i think you are what you go through.. and 9-11 was a pretty big thing… and ALOT of people went through it.
here u have a suspicious situation and it reminds u of a certain situation. (9-11)… honestly.. no one knows wut they would do unless they were in that exact situation.. its easier to say something rather then actually do it.. u know that saying “its easier said then done” well there ya go…
enough said im gunna shut up on this topic…. i could think about this forever saying, “oh they could have handled it a different way”… but if I was in that situation id probably be pissing my pants praying this guy didnt have a bomb or something…
just think about it..
November 16th, 2007 at 12:35 am
[quote comment="33258"]Honestly, if you aren’t a police officer, do not assume what their protocol is. They did not mean to kill him so again, do not assume so. Tired of this damn topic already, too many people assuming they know things they don’t, that’s why I’ve been silent for the most part. I know I’m going to catch a lot of shit for this, but shit DOES happen. You’re driving your car and all of a sudden someone jumps out in front of you, shit happens. However tragic it may be, it happens. *covers his ears and waits for the yelling*[/quote]
You bastard! (just kidding)
The police do have a tough job and often go unpraised for the great work they do. The problem as I see it is our police forces don’t get the funding they need and officers are often undertrained, overworked and understaffed. They’ve fallen into the practice of taking the path of least resistance to compensate for the poor conditions they find themselves in and as you say shit happens.
The real responsibility for this lies with our political leaders who are increasingly concerned with funding programs that benefit them politically at the expense of essential services like healthcare and policing.
November 16th, 2007 at 12:48 am
ok did this guy really have a stapler or was that just a example? either way…u guys get wut im saying i hope..
November 16th, 2007 at 12:54 am
yes…at least thats what global said when they first aired the vid yesterday…he picked up a stapler right before he was tasered the first time.
November 16th, 2007 at 1:03 am
Shit happens is a convenient way of saying that accountability is out the window. I live a block from VCP headquarters. Last year a guy was trying to jump off the roof of a building across the street, a block away. It took an hour before anyone responded. The reason? It’s the lower eastside and who gives a fuck. there is just as much politics in the police force as there is anywhere else, as well as corruption. and if you don’t think that’s the case, you’re a cop in a backwater little town.
November 16th, 2007 at 1:19 am
Ryan, those who are assuming things not in evidence here are those who are defending the actions of the police. That’s where your skeptical eye should be pointed. Independent experts interviewed by the media have criticized the actions of the police here, and I assume that they do know protocol.
November 16th, 2007 at 1:46 am
I agree with bc_boy and while it is no excuse, I do believe it could be a factor in a lot of the mishaps on the Police’s side these days.
Stephen K, I do see what you’re saying but I will stay neutral on this until all of the facts are laid out. Hard for that to happen since the Police are still keeping somewhat hush, hush.
Matthew Good, I also get what you’re saying. All we have to do is look up the articles on the former RCMP Commissioner from the past year or so and see how damn corrupt he was. The accusations finally leading to his resignation.
November 16th, 2007 at 2:31 am
Hey, stapler or not, I have no problem with the argument that it may take four fully grown men to pacify one fully grown man. I can completely understand that logic, as well as with the logic behind ensuring each officer returns home at the end of his shift.
But that said, four fully trained officers versus one irate man, in my mind, nowhere near justifies the use of a last-resort weapon.
End of argument.
As someone else said: barricade the area, and work from there. Simply because the worst case scenario may unfold does not warrant jumping to it right off the bat.
November 16th, 2007 at 7:10 am
ah hell, we don’t need terrorists to keep us living in fear! we’re doing a fine job without them.
November 16th, 2007 at 9:24 am
I know of an Incident
where two Officers approached a young Man
who was waving his Arms in the Air and acting very confused…
The Man did not do anything wrong…
except for refusing to take Orders from the Officers…
Next Thing you know…
he’s being tasered….not once….not twice….but three Times…
Well in the End
it turns out ….. that this young Man was handicapped…
And if that wasn’t bad enough
instead of feeling remorse…
it was made into a big fucking Joke afterwards…
Haha…..real fucking funny Guys…
There are a lot of Stories like this one
but unless they are caught on Video….
there’s not much you can do…
November 16th, 2007 at 9:29 am
As for the polish Guy…
I know exactly what he must have felt like…
I felt the same Way when I arrived at the Airport here in Canada….
not knowing much English…
it was very confusing and scary….
November 16th, 2007 at 10:09 am
[quote comment="33265"][quote comment="33258"]Honestly, if you aren’t a police officer, do not assume what their protocol is. They did not mean to kill him so again, do not assume so. Tired of this damn topic already, too many people assuming they know things they don’t, that’s why I’ve been silent for the most part. I know I’m going to catch a lot of shit for this, but shit DOES happen. You’re driving your car and all of a sudden someone jumps out in front of you, shit happens. However tragic it may be, it happens. *covers his ears and waits for the yelling*[/quote]
You bastard! (just kidding)
The police do have a tough job and often go unpraised for the great work they do. The problem as I see it is our police forces don’t get the funding they need and officers are often undertrained, overworked and understaffed. They’ve fallen into the practice of taking the path of least resistance to compensate for the poor conditions they find themselves in and as you say shit happens.
The real responsibility for this lies with our political leaders who are increasingly concerned with funding programs that benefit them politically at the expense of essential services like healthcare and policing.[/quote]
Hmmm, I don’t buy it here as an answer to this.
Yes it is a problem (shortfalls, cutbacks) - but those who are in place still need to do their job properly. And it’s not like one guy was sent out and couldn’t handle the situation in any other way. There were several officers who attended and should’ve been able to resolve this without killing this man.
This gets thrown out there far too often as a blanket excuse when people screw up on the job….it happens in the hospitals too. Are they shortstaffed/overworked? - yes, often. Is that a good enough reason for people to not do their job properly? - no. My mother used to work 16 hours a day, sometimes 7 days a week - but she took pride in her job and did it well despite that. Sure, fatigue and burn out factor in but let’s not throw this out there every time there’s a problem. I’ve watched some lazy staff over the past couple of years while my parents were in hospital and, while most do bust their tails and are committed to doing a good job, for a few others - not so much. And I hate giving them something to hide behind. Funding and cutbacks are definite problems - don’t get me wrong. But sometimes it’s just a case of someone doing a lousy job.
November 16th, 2007 at 11:16 am
Growing up, I was taught to respect police and do what they say and I have always followed this rule. Always answered truthfully to the questions asked to me and followed their instructions (within their rights, I have, before, not done something because they were violating my personal rights). The thing is, I am a canadian; I grew up with very little reason to fear the police and could fully understand their orders. This man is polish, he probably grew up fearing the police and could not understand the orders being given to him. If a polish police officer (hell even a french police officer) told me to stop, put my hands behind my head, ect I would look confused and not know what he was asking me to do. For all I know he’s asking me to walk over to that chair and sit down.
On top of the communication barrier you have a man who was on a 10 hour flight, and then stuck in a airport with NO ONE to talk to for 10 hours. That’s 20 hours of being awake with little food, and no nicotine (since he apparently quit the day before). How many of you have been awake for over a day with minimal food and no smokes (for those who smoke). I have, and any small thing would set me off, add on top the problem of no one being able to understand or help you and I would be just as agitated.
I understand that RCMP’s must protect themselves as well as the public but from what I have seen, there was no threat to public, only to the police officers themselves. This “threat” was a polish man, with a fucking stapler. Say all you want, that it would hurt to get hit with it ect, but its still a fucking stapler. If he throws it, good chance he will miss and even if he doesn’t he no longer has it. If he lunges for the officers, then force should be used. He did neither, he picked it up (and who knows why) and stood there. I also understand the need for 4 officers, but again, there are FOUR of them and one of him. Even the most basically trained officers can take down one person who has no real weapon. Instead of trying to defuse the situation, they escalated it. What person wouldn’t be scared if 4 polish officers walked towards who with a hand on their gun? I’d pick up a stapler too.
November 16th, 2007 at 11:18 am
[quote comment="33300"] Is that a good enough reason for people to not do their job properly? - no. [/quote]
What I take from this is that you think that the RCMP didn’t do their job properly. Is this a fair assessment?
I guess my only question here is how you could possibly know what procedures are in place for such an incident?
It’s integral that we differentiate between policing itself, and the policy that they follow. If you disagree with the policies in place, speak with your member of parliament. But leave all that nonsensical “fuck the police” and “charge them with manslaughter” bullshit at the door for professionals who are doing nothing but their job.
November 16th, 2007 at 11:32 am
Two things that worry me about where this is going and the kinds of things being said.
First, the officers undoubtedly made a mistake in jumping to a more dangerous method to take him down instead of combining their efforts to physically restrain him. There are a great number of alternatives they could and should have tried before using physical force. I would not not be surprised to hear that all of the officers feel they operated appropriately. HOWEVER. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY DO NOT REGRET OR FEEL BADLY ABOUT THE INCIDENT. I have made gross errors in judgement in the past in my life, and so have you and you fucking know it. Just because I made the wrong choice does not necessarily mean I never felt horrible about the repercussions. It’s easy to be mad at these cops, and I would agree with Matt that manslaughter should be seriously considered, but to get so angry and frustrated that you act like these cops go around INTENDING to kill people is ridiculous and a childlike accusation. Despite their mistakes and poor judgement, they are still human beings capable of remorse. Just because they think they took the right steps does NOT imply that they are glad he’s dead. There’s a fucking difference, one people are quick to forget when an emotionally charged tragedy such as this occurs.
Second. Corruption exists. In every facet of life. So do misguided people. That includes police. However, anytime an event happens and people are at the height of their emotions, they make errors in reasoning.
Bin Laden knocked down the towers. Therefore all Middle Easterns are terrorists.
Hitler was German. Therefore all Germans were Nazi sympathizers.
Four RCMP officers made severe errors in judgement that led to the death of an innocent man. Therefore all members of the RCMP are corrupt and/or want to hurt people.
Dealing in absolutes is dangerous fucking business.
It’s the foundation of racism. “All black people are like…”
It’s started wars and genocides.
Everybody has very strong feelings regarding this issue, and they should.
But be careful how you express them. Don’t denounce hate while propagating it.
November 16th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
You know what scares me the most? That people are able to say “Oh well, tough luck” about the death of another human being.
Any decent person should be outraged at the death. If tasers worked properly and weren’t lethal, a man wouldn’t be dead. At the very least, no matter how you view the situation, you should be pushing to ensure that this never happens again.
“Shit happens” is a great phrase when you accidentally delete your bibliography when attempting to print it out. “Shit happens” is not a fucking acceptable excuse for a death. You really should be ashamed.
November 16th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
[quote comment="33310"]Two things that worry me about where this is going and the kinds of things being said.
First, the officers undoubtedly made a mistake in jumping to a more dangerous method to take him down instead of combining their efforts to physically restrain him. There are a great number of alternatives they could and should have tried before using physical force. I would not not be surprised to hear that all of the officers feel they operated appropriately. HOWEVER. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY DO NOT REGRET OR FEEL BADLY ABOUT THE INCIDENT. I have made gross errors in judgement in the past in my life, and so have you and you fucking know it. Just because I made the wrong choice does not necessarily mean I never felt horrible about the repercussions. It’s easy to be mad at these cops, and I would agree with Matt that manslaughter should be seriously considered, but to get so angry and frustrated that you act like these cops go around INTENDING to kill people is ridiculous and a childlike accusation. Despite their mistakes and poor judgement, they are still human beings capable of remorse. Just because they think they took the right steps does NOT imply that they are glad he’s dead. There’s a fucking difference, one people are quick to forget when an emotionally charged tragedy such as this occurs.
Second. Corruption exists. In every facet of life. So do misguided people. That includes police. However, anytime an event happens and people are at the height of their emotions, they make errors in reasoning.
Bin Laden knocked down the towers. Therefore all Middle Easterns are terrorists.
Hitler was German. Therefore all Germans were Nazi sympathizers.
Four RCMP officers made severe errors in judgement that led to the death of an innocent man. Therefore all members of the RCMP are corrupt and/or want to hurt people.
Dealing in absolutes is dangerous fucking business.
It’s the foundation of racism. “All black people are like…”
It’s started wars and genocides.
Everybody has very strong feelings regarding this issue, and they should.
But be careful how you express them. Don’t denounce hate while propagating it.[/quote]
Rational thinking, then expressing an opinion? Wow zackmitchell, you are apparently on the wrong thread. But I’m glad you posted here in obvious error. Hopefully you’ll make the same mistake more often. ;-)
November 16th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
Yeah I run out of South Park lines every now and then and have to say what’s really on my mind. Don’t tell anyone though, I wouldn’t want my reputation tarnished.
November 16th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
I don’t know how many times it can be said. At no point have I witnessed anyone insinuating or outright stating that the actions of the police officers was anything more than a tragic accident (granted, I’ve skipped reading a few comments for various reasons). I think the vast majority of us truly do understand that the police officers did not run in there on a rampage intending to do harm, let alone kill someone.
The general discussion here is about the level of force used and the appropriateness of said force. Not about some secret conspiracy theory to rid the world of non-native English speakers (or insert wild conspiracy theory here).
Please don’t put words in my mouth, or make assumptions as to what I’ve said. I’m pretty sure others feel the same. I’m more than happy to read the opinions of others, I have found that a great number have some pretty valid things to say. And hopefully we all can continue our somewhat civil discourse and mutual outrage over the needless (I think we can all agree on that fact) death of Mr.Dziekanski. Allowing for all our opinions.
November 16th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
[quote comment="33223"]Hey Helpmejebus
I don’t think YOU understand the U.S. system. The prosecution can’t appeal an aquittal[/quote]
True enough: Double Jeopardy. Unless there is an indication of some sort of corruption (bribing the jury/judge etc.) where the accused was never really in jeopardy. Same holds true in Canada.
I am unfamiliar with the case to which you are refering, it is most likely (I would even say absolutely) fact specific.
November 16th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Has anyone remembered a recent federal report (Auditor General, I think) that pointed out that the RCMP are the least trained and worst paid police force in the country? Once upon a time I wanted to be a Mountie, but no longer…
November 16th, 2007 at 5:20 pm
I don’t understand this entire situation. “They” say this man was detained yet it appears he could have come through the door at any time. The woman was certainly not anyone in authority yet it is obvious she was trying to help the man and he refused. If he was there for hours, why hadn’t his mother requested someone find him when he didn’t come through to where she was waiting? It is apparent that the man had more issues than just the language barrier. A child would know enough to accept help. Needless to say, this does not justify overuse of a taser. I’m pretty sure the RCMP did not set out to kill the man - and if such a result is rare then surely they did not expect this result. Unfortunate accidents do happen. That doesn’t mean we don’t investigate and fix how things are done but lets keep our wits about us. This was not a typical situation - I doubt we have to fear that the RCMP are going to kill us at every opportunity.
November 16th, 2007 at 6:41 pm
This is so sad. I gotta tell my boyfriend not to pretend he doesn’t know English (he’s Polish as well) to get out of trouble, it could backfire on him. What a terrible thing.
November 16th, 2007 at 9:18 pm
Matt,
Your last paragraph says it all. Shoot first, ask questions later. Please, no one tell me that it’s always been this way in Canada because it hasn’t. I don’t know if I grieve more for this poor man’s family or for the loss of another of the fundamental reasons I was once proud to be a Canadian.
November 16th, 2007 at 9:27 pm
i just watched the video again because i wanted to see if i could hear Mr.Dziekanski speak while all this was taking place….i speak polish because i was born there and moved here in 1988…from what i could hear and understand i’ll try to translate some of the things Mr.Dziekanski said or yelled out….at first when u see him he was holding a wooden table he yelled out “im going to break all this glass”…as this continues he said he was going to smash everything…when the woman approached him he told her to plaese leave me alone everyone….as he was coming through the glass doors he started yelling that he was going to complain about everyone and everything thta was happenning…”i’m gong to report about this and everyone”…..i could hear him also yelling a curse in polish thats very common(kurwa) aka fu*k…as the rcmp was was aproaching i could hear mr.Dziekanski saying police police…also when the rcmp was got closer and closer i heard him saying “i dont want to go to jail, i dont want to go to jail”..also when he was tasered and started backing away i could hear the word DOSYC DOSYC which means enough….then he was tasered again and everyone could hear the maoning untill Mr.Dziekanski voice disapeared into all the backgroung noise….this is of course an unofficial translation by me tomasz swacha…i hope it helps people understand this terrible incident that should have never taken place…i hope we all learn from this…
November 16th, 2007 at 9:58 pm
I’m curious if everone has watched the un-editted version, it’s almost 9 minutes long. It gives a wonderful account of what transpired and shows even better how the response by the police was clearly justified.
Nice to see how biased the presentation has been…
November 16th, 2007 at 10:12 pm
im really courious as to what one of the rcmp officers was doing when it looked like he was swinging the baton(stick) at mr.Dziekanski?when you look closer the body of mr.dziekanski wasnt moving whlie the rcmp was swinning his baton…so was he hitting him or doing something else?
November 16th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
Besides everything that has been rightfully said about “last resorts first” and complete lack of interest in analyzing the situation the cops were faced with, this is my own personal conclusion from this event(and other such incidents) as a citizen of this country:
I’m 25 and fairly petite (5′3 on my better days) I’m about 118lbs, I live in the downtown core of a big canadian city. It is now the middle of the night (12:44am) so definitely a time when disorderly behaviour would be viewed as potentially threatening.
If I ran downstairs right now, outside and started throwing things aournd, anything, garbage bags, bottles, anything I could find for whatever reason (because my bf told me he was leaving me, because someone I loved died or maybe because I have a mental condition or maybe JUST BECAUSE.)
If I were now outside, displaying disorderly behaviour, someone would definitely call the cops. And so they would come, maybe one car maybe more. But I would still be so taken with my emotions or so upset or so angry that I wouldn’t care if they are talking to me, or trying to reason with me. We have all been there when we are so angry or emotional we don’t respond normally.
Well if I did that right now, I could die.
Getting tazed may only hurt for 5 seconds according to someone who commented on this post..it might hurt this little for a well-trained healthy cop perhaps.
How much would it hurt me? Being tazed, not once, but twice, perhaps three times for good measure???
Would I survive it? With my stature?
And that scares me. Knowing that any reason is reason enough. That today you can die in Canada for displaying NOT CRIMINAL but disorderly behaviour or refusing to listen, without having a gun, without attacking anyone.
I read here that cops don’t have it easy, that they have a difficult job. Agreed. A job nonetheless that they volunteered for. A job that puts them in contact with PEOPLE. OTHER HUMANS. Since when did the RCMP adopt a policy of SHOOT TO KILL?
4 RCMP officers on 1 MAN…..
I am today not only ashamed of being Canadian, I am also scared.
ps. There is not much to be expected from the so-called investigations involving RCMP or other law-inforcement officers. They will perhaps get suspended. Someone will get a tap on their wrist and that will be it. It will drag on for 2 years at the end of which the cops involved will be found not-guilty. They will have each other’s backs and say the situation justified their actions.
And somewhere in Kamloops, a grief-stricken mother will never forgive herself for convincing her only son to fly half way aorund the world to start a better life.