Video Of Fatal Vancouver Airport Incident Released
As some of you might already be aware, RCMP officers killed a Polish man, Robert Dziekanski, during a recent altercation at Vancouver International Airport. The RCMP are currently stating that they Tasered Dziekanski twice, though an eyewitness has claimed that she heard up to four Taser shots fired. Having watched the video of the incident captured by bystander Paul Pritchard, I have to admit that I only heard two discernable shots, though there could have been a third that was muted. There is also a moment when one of the officers seems to thrust something down at Dziekanski, though it’s imposible to tell if it struck him or simply the floor.
After the incident, the RCMP confiscated the video footage shot by Pritchard, promising to return it to him within 48 hours. They then told Pritchard that they would not be returning it to him, prompting him to retain a lawyer to seek the return of the footage to ensure that there was no cover-up on the part of the police.
The thing about this incident that is unbelievable to me is – why did four RCMP officers Taser a single man? True, Dziekanski seems disturbed in the video, he may have even suffered from a mental illness given his behaviour, but does that warrant the use of force within seconds of arriving on the scene? He had come off of a flight, so there was no chance that he had a weapon – he was in a security-controlled section of the airport. During the incident he also did not threaten anyone physically, even responding in a detracted manner to a woman that stepped forward to talk to him. Yes, his behaviour was erratic, there’s no question, but again, did it warrant being Tasered twice by police before they even tried to attempt to calm the situation in some way, let alone subdue him physically?
The RCMP claim that they could not have employed pepper spray because there were too many people in the area – but all of the bystanders watching the incident were on the other side of a pane of glass and would not have been affected by it.
Subsequently, a man is dead for absolutely no reason.
Watching the video it’s clear that Dziekanski did not place the four RCMP officers in an immediate life-threatening situation or one that required the use of such overt force. In truth, the incident may very well constitute manslaughter.
One has to wonder, given the state of heightened fear that we currently find ourselves living in, if this situation would have played out some other way were it to have occurred pre-9/11.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
I sat on my couch frozen, as I watched this video tonite..
Yes, he was out of control but something that doesn’t add up is once the RCMP arrived on scene, he seemed to have calmed down a bit.. So why taser him?
Another thing that infuriated me was that the guy was freaking tasered! Why did the one RCMP have his knee in the guys neck.. I think his knee is what killed him.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:26 pm
p.s. Thanks for posting that. I sat on my couch wondering and hoping you would post something … I’m disgusted about that whole scene…. I actually feel sick just talking about it but I’m curious to see if others feel the same way. Why in hell, if a guy is already down and can’t move because of the electric shock he had in him, would they need to put their leg on his neck? This whole thing makes my blood boil.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:32 pm
My heart goes out to his mother.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:33 pm
You have to seriously wonder. The man has come off a long-haul flight, been stuck in immigration for hours, no one attempts to help him, he can’t speak English, he’s probably dehydrated and jet-lagged, no one assisted his mother in finding him who had come to the airport to pick him up - they actually told her that he wasn’t there. So she left, drove half way to the interior before getting a phone call saying he was there only to arrive and find him dead.
And then do you know what they did? They offered to put her up in fucking half-way house. How’s that for classy. Oh, sorry your son’s dead, can we put you up in a half-way house for the evening?
In truth, this is a massive failure on the part of the airport, immigration, and the police. The people watching it unfold handled the situation better. At least at that point he was alive.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
Even as last resort tools, Taser Guns have always left me with the impression that those holding them would be more inclined to jump to the last resort much quicker.
Obviously this is a case where that appears to be moot, the question here seems to be why was any severe level of force used at all.
But regardless, Taser Guns don’t sit well with me.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
I meant to say that before, about the airport.. Why was he in immigration for 8 hours? and at the bagage area for another 6, was it? or am I getting my lines crossed? At any rate, why did they not help them find each other?
Also, I don’t know if anyone noticed this but on the video, the guy that checked his pulse; he got up after he realized the guy had no pulse. He had no emotion and no one seemed distraught.. like wtf is that?
November 14th, 2007 at 11:37 pm
I’d really like to hear Dan Lilly’s take on all of this. He’s a US customs officer at YVR.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:40 pm
Me too..
Although some people are not allowed to comment on this … the one guy they talked to about tasering was not allowed to comment….
November 14th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
I haven’t seen the footage, having the distinct disadvantage of working two jobs (substitute teaching and bookselling) and not getting nearly enough sleep.
Having said that, I’ve been seeing far too many stories lately about people dying after being tasered. And still it’s classified as “nonleathal force”
Bullshit.
Since a taser gives an electric shock, a reasonable person would know that there was a limit to the frequency with which the trigger could be pulled on a person without causing permanent damage. In the wrong hands (whether panicky or power-hungry), a taser has nothing more or less than a handheld electric chair. Judge, jury, executioner.
Happy thoughts, eh!
November 14th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
I wonder if there were other camera’s and different angle’s. The one assholes leg was gauged in this guys neck, it gave me chills.. Hello, the guy is out cold with how many jolts through his body; they even said on the news ‘even after he stopped breathing, he knee was still on his neck’. hhmmmmmm do you think the knee maybe stopped the breathing? hmmmmmmmmmm
November 14th, 2007 at 11:47 pm
OMG they offered her to stay the night in a half way house, are you kidding me? I missed that part…
November 14th, 2007 at 11:48 pm
It IS a tough situation, although in all fairness, being a police officer is a thankless position, no matter what. If there was property damage (above what was created) it was going to their fault. If they used pepper spray, it was going to be their fault for collateral injuries. If they took too long, it would be their fault for hindering airport traffic.
I agree with Matt, they did appear to act too quickly, but if you could read everything going through an officer’s head in a situation like this it would be tough to judge.
I appreciate the manner you approach this, Matt. You point out an opportunity while not individually chastising the police on scene. Thank you for your view point.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:49 pm
Oh, don’t get me wrong. Given the video, they should be charged with manslaughter at the very least.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:51 pm
Thanks for posting this… I was browsing CBC.ca, but couldn’t seem to find the video link there.
I wonder how many people need to die before police forces worldwide will recognize them as a lethal weapon.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:52 pm
We flipped on the news tonight and the police were doing a taser demo on the reporter to show how harmless it was, “oh my, that was a bit of a shock! teehee!”
Ya hear they also want to give tasers to the already handgun-armed Skytrain cops now? Perfect.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:53 pm
Ya, they’ll PR this to death in an attempt to downplay it.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:54 pm
Rebecca that shock killed a man possibly… and 280 others across North America last year..
Who said the taser was harmless? The person that made the ‘gadget’? my god.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:01 am
Does no one see that he grabs something just before he is tasered? It appears to me that he grabbed something and the way he lifts his right arm suggests to me that he wants to use it violently. Approximatley 6:47 into the video. If the RCMP officers observed a threat, which I believe they did, they immobilized it. I am not commenting on the subsequent shots with the taser, but the first one does, to me, seem warranted
November 15th, 2007 at 12:07 am
Does[quote comment="33066"]Does no one see that he grabs something just before he is tasered? It appears to me that he grabbed something and the way he lifts his right arm suggests to me that he wants to use it violently. Approximatley 6:47 into the video. If the RCMP officers observed a threat, which I believe they did, they immobilized it. I am not commenting on the subsequent shots with the taser, but the first one does, to me, seem warranted[/quote]
6:47 is a second after you hear the crack of the first taser shot, I think he was raising his arm in reaction to getting hit by it.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:09 am
[quote comment="33065"]Rebecca that shock killed a man possibly… and 280 others across North America last year..
Who said the taser was harmless? The person that made the ‘gadget’? my god.[/quote]
Yeah, I was being facetious hence even quoting the “teehee”
Also it was reported that it took 8-12 minutes for paramedics to get there even though airport medics were only 2 mins away and never called… RCMP are trained in CPR too, aren’t they?
November 15th, 2007 at 12:10 am
I think you have to realize too that before this is happening, first off there is a guy stating that there will be a load of people coming in a few minutes, hence why the spray would not have been used…isolated or not.
In response to Tanya’s point, in terms of police of people of authoriy, I don’t necessarily blame the guy for showing no emotion because you’re not him. He a) could have been in shock b) they are trained to show no emotion for emergency sake, to which you can ask any member of the police foundations or health foundations.
I have to wonder what the RCMP was told before their arrival…”crazy guy throwing shit speaking in tongues,”…do you know what I mean, hence their militaristic entrance into the situation.
However, I see Eric’s point about the guy grabbing something. Though it’s hard to make out, I see it. That being said, there are three distinct shots, the last two being completely unneccessary.
And I’m wondering, though I’m somewhat sure, though the amount of pressure of the officer’s knee was probably unnecessary, isn’t it used to his head won’t fling back (snapping/breaking).
November 15th, 2007 at 12:12 am
For some reason the taser has some internal reputation of being safe, but it appears to be anything but that. The marketing for them says they are non-lethal, but obviously there have been many fatalities associated with it.
As a result, I think the police have the potential to overuse it since they think it’s relatively harmless. There have been several cases of severe abuse, one of which was at UCLA last year, where a student was tased up to four times I believe.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:13 am
Also, couldn’t it be argued that the effect of a taser gun and pepperspray would have had two different outcomes?
The pepperspray would have burnt to shit but the man still would have been mobile, thus, prone to do something else.
On the other hand, the taser almost supercedes the pepperspray because it decreases mobility and a chance of heightening the situation.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:19 am
My SO spent a number of years doing forensic psychiatry assessment. This case is pretty typical of how an event (a “code white” or a “take down” or “arrest”) can go bad.
I’m also from Kingston ON, which (IIRC) is Canada’s biggest ‘Prison Town’. I’ve seen SO MANY news reports of Autopsies for “take downs” and “cell extractions” in my 30 years living there.
It is pretty clear in retrospect that as a previous Poster mentioned, this man has extremely fatigued, in a foreign country where noone spoke his language [culture shock], dehydrated, and afraid.
I’d suggest that he was in what is called an Excited Delirium (a form of ‘psychosis’). Dehydration and stress and fatigue and extreme anxiety are KNOWN to do this. :( This happens to little old people or very sick people in the hospitals, for example, all the time.
He seemed to become calm. Then they sent in four Uniformed, Big Males with Weapons. Big mistake. This appears to have escalated things. (They should have first figured out his language and then sent in a small un-uniformed woman to talk to him in calm tones.)
Cops, again and again, prove that they need mental health training. *sigh*
Even wonky blood sugar (diabetes; hypoglycemia) can make “Nice People” become Violent, Aggresssive and Combative.
I keep telling the Good Doctor here that we need to patent a “Haldol Tranquilizer Gun” or a “Net Gun.” ;)
History always presents the same lessons again and again until we figure it out.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:20 am
[quote comment="33068"][quote comment="33065"]Rebecca that shock killed a man possibly… and 280 others across North America last year..
Who said the taser was harmless? The person that made the ‘gadget’? my god.[/quote]
Yeah, I was being facetious hence even quoting the “teehee”
Also it was reported that it took 8-12 minutes for paramedics to get there even though airport medics were only 2 mins away and never called… RCMP are trained in CPR too, aren’t they?[/quote]
Oh sorry, I didn’t notice the quote’s…. sorreeeeeeeeeee
November 15th, 2007 at 12:28 am
[quote comment="33072"]My SO spent a number of years doing forensic psychiatry assessment. This case is pretty typical of how an event (a “code white” or a “take down” or “arrest”) can go bad.
I’m also from Kingston ON, which (IIRC) is Canada’s biggest ‘Prison Town’. I’ve seen SO MANY news reports of Autopsies for “take downs” and “cell extractions” in my 30 years living there.
It is pretty clear in retrospect that as a previous Poster mentioned, this man has extremely fatigued, in a foreign country where noone spoke his language [culture shock], dehydrated, and afraid.
I’d suggest that he was in what is called an Excited Delirium (a form of ‘psychosis’). Dehydration and stress and fatigue and extreme anxiety are KNOWN to do this. :( This happens to little old people or very sick people in the hospitals, for example, all the time.
He seemed to become calm. Then they sent in four Uniformed, Big Males with Weapons. Big mistake. This appears to have escalated things. (They should have first figured out his language and then sent in a small un-uniformed woman to talk to him in calm tones.)
Cops, again and again, prove that they need mental health training. *sigh*
Even wonky blood sugar (diabetes; hypoglycemia) can make “Nice People” become Violent, Aggresssive and Combative.
I keep telling the Good Doctor here that we need to patent a “Haldol Tranquilizer Gun” or a “Net Gun.” ;)
History always presents the same lessons again and again until we figure it out.[/quote]
I think trying to find one who could first truly identify the language, (you had one woman suggesting he was Italian, and then it went to Russian). The longer the situation would have went, unfortunately, you can’t predict what the outcome would have been to have let that much time elapse.
I am in no way justifying tasering a man several times, but as the investigation will proceed, we need to find out what happened out side of that glass room, who was told what and how the situation was portrayed to the officers approaching the situation.
I don’t think that whoever received the call for help is stupid nor would I suggest he did anytihng wrong; I think he did sent the appropriate amount of men in there. Looking at this article from the national post :
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=e386fc77-e1c9-4262-95ce-6b2fc77dd27d
I agree with the Professor. They took the easy root as opposed to using the weapons they had which would have been strength. However, imagine you were the 4 officers, unable to communicate to this man. Reports show they were asking him to put his hands on the counter. As a result of his resistence (due to the language barrier) they shot him. I think we need to consider the mentality of the officers before calling them power hungry assholes. (again I’m not saying what they did was right, but I don’t know if I can argue that they were 100% wrong in the first moments of the encounter-continuing to shoot him is a whole other ball game).
November 15th, 2007 at 12:57 am
courtney love acts weirder on flights and in airports and no one tasers her to death
November 15th, 2007 at 1:03 am
[quote comment="33061"]Oh, don’t get me wrong. Given the video, they should be charged with manslaughter at the very least.[/quote]
Are you for real? Matt, while you may be trained as a musician, I’d wager that you are not trained as a peace officer. That said, I’d imagine the men in the video have a better grasp of the procedures in place for such an incident than yourself.
It’s terribly easy to sit in the comfort of your own home watching a video over and over again KNOWING the outcome of the situation. Had the circumstances been different– the suspect in question had the intent of hurting or killing a police officer, civilian, or worse– we likely wouldn’t be having this discussion. Unfortunately, when an irate individual in an AIRPORT doesn’t readily respond to officers directions, they were forced to act quickly in the most effective manner they deemed possible AT THE TIME.
Thankless career indeed.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:29 am
Give me a fricking break about the “knowing the outcome of the situation” straw man argument. If this is following training and/or SOP it sucks, it’s a disgrace and I’m disgusted. The guy was in a restricted security area… I guess he was about to pull out his invisible bazooka.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:44 am
However, Waffles08, I think this situation calls for some sort of hypothetical, since many police situations are first and foremost, hypothetical.
Taking into account that this man was irrational, scared and so on, he could have taken a blow to one of the cops–in this case, wouldn’t you think the outcome would have been “worse,” with the same result.
(By this I mean the cops would have probably beat the shit out of him and still used the taser, etc).
I’m also wondering, keeping in light of Matt’s original train of thought, (in regards post 9/11), taking our knowledge of the man aside, what if he had turned out to be a “terrorist” (even though I hate that word, its almost become comical to me now), HOWEVER, what if he was in fact a terrorist. Would we have the same reaction?
Keeping the post 9/11 mentality in mind, can you truly say that the way the RCMP handled the situation in the FIRST moments of the incident were wrong? You need authority. You need to show your superiority and dominance over the situation, hence the united front approach to the man. Like I have said before you need to consider what the RCMP were told prior to arriving on scene. Add a guy that’s sweating, throwing shit, and creating a blockade of chairs who cant speak a word of English to the mix, and you have yourself a “think on the spot hypothetical situation.”
What would you have done? Stood there calmly and let him jump at you and let the situation get worse ? (again take into account that you need to be hypothetical and pretend you don’t know the outcome).
November 15th, 2007 at 1:52 am
[quote comment="33079"]Give me a fricking break about the “knowing the outcome of the situation” straw man argument.[/quote]
I guess what I’m insinuating is that had this event occured without the death of the individual, all of you “Crusaders of Morality” would never had heard about it. The truth is, tasers are used hundreds of times every day, largely without incident.
Much like the work of police on a daily basis, tasers aren’t scrutinized unless something goes wrong…
Get it?
November 15th, 2007 at 2:03 am
[quote comment="33083"][quote comment="33079"]Give me a fricking break about the “knowing the outcome of the situation” straw man argument.[/quote]
I guess what I’m insinuating is that had this event occured without the death of the individual, all of you “Crusaders of Morality” would never had heard about it. The truth is, tasers are used hundreds of times every day, largely without incident.
Much like the work of police on a daily basis, tasers aren’t scrutinized unless something goes wrong…
Get it?[/quote]
I think you’re totally right. This wasn’t their first day on the job nor was it their first time handling a taser gun. I think they did follow the protocol in regards to HOW they handled the situation. I think they shot too many times, however, they did what was expected when a situation of that stature is occuring. They shot, held him down, held his neck down to prevent damage (though i can agree more damage was done with the force of the knee), etc. Again, not sticking up for them however I am able to see the other side of the coin.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:09 am
this story saddens me, he just just a construction worker in Poland who wanted to come here to live a new life with his mother.
The RCMP went overboard with this situation and i feel it could have been handled a hell of a lot differently than tasering him. He wasn’t even concealing a weapon of any sort or under the influence of anything.
Also, why the hell did it take the ambulance 12 minutes to arrive on the scene when he slipped into unconciousness?
I was just looking at the time-lime: 1:21 a.m. — Vancouver International Airport calls the RCMP, reporting a 50-year-old male is throwing suitcases and appears to be intoxicated;
1:26 — The passenger has now thrown a chair through a window;
1:27 — Two security guards show up. One minute later, the RCMP arrives;
1:30 - A male has been tasered and is unconscious but breathing. Ambulance is called;
1:31 — Security guards help restrain the man, who is now described as a suspect;
1:32 — The log reports that Dziekanski has lost consciousness.
1:36 - A Code 3 is issued to paramedics, indicating someone is unconscious.
1:44 - Paramedics arrive, 12 minutes after Dziekanski, 40, first slipped into unconsciousness.
Someone, in their right frame of mind could have simply taken him to immigration to find an interpretor to find out what the problem was. the mother was waiting 10 hours for him and no one even assisted her in helping him. She also worked her ass off, two jobs for 7 years to get her son immigrated here.
Hopefully, the civil suit they’re talking about goes through against the RCMP and also Citizenship and Immigration.
On top of it all this is the second Taser victim since the first one was from Montreal. That was a different incident, he was driving his vehicle erratically into other vehicles. But, still i don’t think they need to use a taser especially at 50,000 volts which was used for the same case with the Polish man.
So far there’s been 17 cases with tasers since 2003. that’s pretty brutal if you ask me.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:16 am
[quote comment="33085"]this story saddens me, he just just a construction worker in Poland who wanted to come here to live a new life with his mother.
The RCMP went overboard with this situation and i feel it could have been handled a hell of a lot differently than tasering him. He wasn’t even concealing a weapon of any sort or under the influence of anything.
Also, why the hell did it take the ambulance 12 minutes to arrive on the scene when he slipped into unconciousness?
I was just looking at the time-lime: 1:21 a.m. — Vancouver International Airport calls the RCMP, reporting a 50-year-old male is throwing suitcases and appears to be intoxicated;
1:26 — The passenger has now thrown a chair through a window;
1:27 — Two security guards show up. One minute later, the RCMP arrives;
1:30 - A male has been tasered and is unconscious but breathing. Ambulance is called;
1:31 — Security guards help restrain the man, who is now described as a suspect;
1:32 — The log reports that Dziekanski has lost consciousness.
1:36 - A Code 3 is issued to paramedics, indicating someone is unconscious.
1:44 - Paramedics arrive, 12 minutes after Dziekanski, 40, first slipped into unconsciousness.
Someone, in their right frame of mind could have simply taken him to immigration to find an interpretor to find out what the problem was. the mother was waiting 10 hours for him and no one even assisted her in helping him. She also worked her ass off, two jobs for 7 years to get her son immigrated here.
Hopefully, the civil suit they’re talking about goes through against the RCMP and also Citizenship and Immigration.
On top of it all this is the second Taser victim since the first one was from Montreal. That was a different incident, he was driving his vehicle erratically into other vehicles. But, still i don’t think they need to use a taser especially at 50,000 volts which was used for the same case with the Polish man.
So far there’s been 17 cases with tasers since 2003. that’s pretty brutal if you ask me.[/quote]
What about actual guns? 17 isnt a perfect number but this isn’t a perfect world. If everything was fullproof we wouldn’t have the need to continually upgrade our technology, and in this case, police weapons.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:41 am
You would think that with the number of hours this man spent waiting in the airport that someone would have tried to assist him in finding his mother or vice versa. Airport security shows up and does nothing, they simpy turn their backs on a clearly distraught man. How truly sad that this man and his mother were never able to reunite. My heart goes out to her. She deserved more than an offer to be put up in a half way house after the death of her son. Disgusting all around.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:43 am
Stranger that it happened in Canada…
November 15th, 2007 at 3:16 am
[quote comment="33083"][quote comment="33079"] I guess what I’m insinuating is that had this event occured without the death of the individual, all of you “Crusaders of Morality” would never had heard about it. The truth is, tasers are used hundreds of times every day, largely without incident.
Much like the work of police on a daily basis, tasers aren’t scrutinized unless something goes wrong…
Get it?[/quote]
Distraught, disoriented, confused and unarmed individuals are calmed and reassured hundreds of times every day, largely without the use of tasers.
I disapprove of your dirty laundry, even when it’s not hung outside my window obstructing my view of the sun. It still stinks.
Get it?
November 15th, 2007 at 3:29 am
[quote comment="33081"] taking our knowledge of the man aside, what if he had turned out to be a “terrorist” (even though I hate that word, its almost become comical to me now), HOWEVER, what if he was in fact a terrorist. Would we have the same reaction? [/quote]
Hahah. You got me there. Your suggestion that one should participate in this FoxNews-style thought experiment signals a sort of post-911 Godwin’s law for the end of my participation in this thread.
PS. Let me know when loitering around YVR’s luggage conveyance for 10 hours makes it onto an episode of 24.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:32 am
Fuck the Police. why has police become shot first ask questions later?
“no paper work, lets just sprinkle some crack on him and get out of here”
the cops are so power needy. they freak out over everything.
btw. the reason they used the taser, was so they wouldn’t break a sweat doing there job.
November 15th, 2007 at 5:32 am
This is what a POLICE STATE looks like.
Do not fight the GOD creatures. You are not a citizen, you are a Civilian. When was it that we started talking in Military terms about the population?
This is what a POLICE STATE looks like.
This is what a POLICE STATE looks like.
This is what a POLICE STATE looks like.
This is what a POLICE STATE looks like.
This is what a POLICE STATE looks like.
This is what a POLICE STATE looks like.
This is what a POLICE STATE looks like.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:17 am
I agree that knowing the outcome perhaps makes us quick to pass judgement…
BUT…
(and I’m no peace officer either)
I would assume that it should always be protocol that force is a last resort. When someone is down, there is NO need to continue applying force “just in case” the person “could have” “maybe” done something.
That’s bull. Sitting at home on your couch also makes it a lot easier to imagine the alternatives and come up with lame excuses for unnecessary violence.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:56 am
I was sick to my stomach watching this. He was clearly distraught, which is clearly understandable after a 15 hour flight (his first time flying) and 10 hour stay in the airport. When at the airport he was receiving no help, he didn’t speak any english and was not getting any help to reunite him with his mother. I would be a little uneasy too.
When confront by the police he raised his hands as if to say “ok, ok!” and yet within 20 seconds, 4 large officers had to taser him twice and then all 4 of them pin him to the ground with all their weight. It was absolutely appalling to watch. Is it lack of training or lack of conscience? Regardless what they did was criminal and unjustified.
The officer addressing the press kept referring to the tape as “one small piece of evidence”. How is this small? It’s the entire encounter on tape, there is no background or history of violence that the police had access to before confronting him, they were advised several times he didn’t speak english. What else is there to consider? I am very curious to hear all these “other factors” that are at play here, they killed the man in just over 2 mins, and they did it on tape…
Fucking disgusting.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:56 am
Watch the video between 6:30 and 7 minutes. As the polish man is standing near the doorway with the officers we see his empty hands. He moves from the doorway throwing his hands in the air(still empty) He turns toward the camera and obviously picks something up off the counter. At that moment the police fan out around him in reaction to his picking up something that looks like a stick, likely dowling from the chair this rational individual smashed. (aka a weapon). He gets tasered and as his arms flail we see the weapon. What occurred prior and after is very unfortunate. But to me, this clearly answers the why taser him question.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:59 am
Tasers are nasty little weapons. If used on a person in perfect health, they’ll do what they are supposed to do. But how many of us are in “perfect” health? Any heart condition, no matter how minor, will change the effectiveness of the weapon from severe to nearly lethal. Sometimes, it’s lethal.
I used to work as a Security Guard in downtown Toronto. No weapons of any kind…we were trained to talk to people and calm them down. Once you can get someone talking, you can find out why they’re doing what they’re doing, and help them to stop.
I’m not going to judge the officers…clearly, none of us were there and we can’t really say how we’d react in a situation. Unfortunately, a man is dead and that cannot be changed.
November 15th, 2007 at 7:39 am
It’s beyond me why an obviously distressed man would be left for ten hours without the airport staff seeking a translator or help of some kind. Furthermore, his mother informed them (3x) that her son would be waiting in that area and they did not even check for her? What the fuck? Even if the man was ‘out of control’ at the time the RCMP arrived, I’m sure that he would not have posed much of a threat to four trained officers.They could have restrained him without the use of the taser - and why did they use it twice?
Again, why the fuck wouldn’t the airport of helped him instead of watching him stand there for ten hours becoming increasingly frustrated, dehydrated, hungry…? Welcome to Canada!
November 15th, 2007 at 7:55 am
It’s easy to comment and say that what the police did was wrong unless you were there to hear and see what actually happened.
Whatever happened to taking responsibility for yourself? If this man couldn’t speak a word of english then why did get into a situation where he’d have to wait alone, unassisted at the airport? Maybe talking to the airline before hand and arranging some help would be useful. Saying, “Look, I’m not familiar with the area, the language etc. Do you think someone could help me out when I arrive?”
If he had a mental illness and was not stable because he didn’t have access to medication…then why not say something to someone before flying? Because the airline would think he was a threat?? Maybe he shouldn’t have been flying if he wasn’t well!!
How do you think the police or airport would react if ANYONE started freaking out like that in the airport?
I mean seriously, when I fly, I’m so nervous not to attract suspicion that I just do whatever they ask in security…be polite, thank them and be on my way.
I would be shocked to see that going on in an airport. I would be frightened even more if I had my kids with me and some guy was freaking out like that….WOULDN’T YOU GUYS?? It’s horrible that this man died. At the same time, I don’t honestly believe that the police thought, “Let’s kill this fucker!” while they tasered him.
All I’m saying is, it’s time people look at their own actions and take responsibility for them.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:24 am
It’s hard to tell for sure but it looks like when they first hit him with the taser and he screams, turns, and raises his hands, that he has some sort of metal object in his hand…….watch that part closely. Now if he had that in his hands when they surround him that would explain to me why he was tasered.
The man was clearly exhibiting signs of excited delerium and was automatically at a very high risk to die from any use of force, even just physical handling. The question I have is why did they not perform CPR? If the subject has been rendered unconscious and is not breathing, that is the first thing they should have done….
Hard to tell for sure what was really happening though as the video is a little grainy and is only shot from one angle at say 40 feet away.
Just my 2 bits….
November 15th, 2007 at 8:37 am
I wonder what kind of uproar this would have caused if a Canadian had been treated like this in Poland for instance and ultimately killed….
November 15th, 2007 at 8:41 am
5 against 1….thats as simple as u need it…..u dont need to taser anyone when its 5 vs 1….do the math MTW….u force the guy down and no one dies….by the way what makes u such an expert ?
November 15th, 2007 at 8:55 am
After hearing about the Robert Dziekanski story as well as two others deaths in Quebec only in the last month after the use of Taser Guns, I’ve decided to start a petition so that the Ministers of Public Safety from each province as well as the federal Minister, Stockwell Day, reconsider the use of this Weapon and either better regulate it just as guns are or ban it altogether.
Sign The Petition http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/tasergun
November 15th, 2007 at 9:29 am
[quote comment="33092"]Fuck the Police. why has police become shot first ask questions later?
“no paper work, lets just sprinkle some crack on him and get out of here”
the cops are so power needy. they freak out over everything.
btw. the reason they used the taser, was so they wouldn’t break a sweat doing there job.[/quote]
WOW, I’m really sad that a few (yes, few) detrimental incidents with police officers have skewed the public’s view so much. Let’s just clarify, I’m not a right wing crusader but a majority of officers are full functioning, calm individuals. Agreed, THIS situation was handled incorrectly with the worst results possible.
Tasers are dangerous weapons and what people have yet to note is that the device began as a subtle stun device and has evolved into it’s current edition. They started at ~14000W to~ 50000W which was more than enough and currently run much higher, more like 250000W . Can you test this device? No. People are different, in every situation, like flying to Vancouver from Poland which will greatly affect your physiology. No offence, but there isn’t a single person this “trained” on the planet, nor is it possible to train someone for ALL situations.
Someone died, we cannot change that. The person(s) holding the taser cannot change that. You think he’s void of guilt? Let’s learn from this.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:36 am
regardless of anything anyone has to say on the matter he did not have to die…he had no weapon, since when cant 4 cops overtake 1 man?
it is a shame…senseless…he needed help…lots of ppl dropped the ball on this one…police procedure correct or not, at worst he should be in a hospital bed right now with him mom beside him.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:46 am
Whatever happened to just tackling someone to the ground? Is that somehow less “humane” than using a tazer gun? What’s the worst that can happen tackling someone? An officer might get a bloody nose? Oh dear! I highly doubt 4 men bringing down 1 guy who has no weapon could result in a life threatening situation for the officers. Basically what I’m saying is I’m tired of these tazer antics and I’m tired of police apologists. I know they must assume all people suspicious and restrain those that may be a threat, but certainly their discretion needs to be re-evaluated.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:51 am
I can’t understand why CPR was not given to this man once they knew he was not breathing, WTF??
I know cops have the training so why wasn’t anything done?
November 15th, 2007 at 10:02 am
From what I can tell, this was a case of mental illness. That was incredibly hard to watch, and to hear him screaming in pain only intensified the situation. Yes, he did seem slightly agressive, but I think between 4 cops, they would have been able to overpower and cuff him, before pulling out the weapons. As it was mentioned before by Matt, he had just come off of a plane, so the chances of him having any weapon on his person would have been slim to none. I don’t even know what else to say, it’s just so upsetting.
I also wanted to mention that my father suffers from seizures, and I can assure you, for about 20 minutes if not more after a seizure, he is completely not himself. He can become agressive and say things that make no sense, yet he is the sweetest man at any other given time. How can we be so sure that this man didn’t experience the same, or some other type of medically-induced psychosis.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:04 am
[quote comment="33111"]regardless of anything anyone has to say on the matter he did not have to die…he had no weapon, since when cant 4 cops overtake 1 man?[/quote]
Once pre-conceived notions are wiped from ones eyes before viewing. The undeniable fact that he does arm himself with a weapon will become evident.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:05 am
Give me a break. A petition to stop tasers, never going to happen. And on top of that, why should it? Of all the instances of taser use - like someone said there are hundreds used every day - there have been few instances of death. For the amount of times that police in North America have been able to rely on tasers for safe take downs i think it is a vital tool. As for the amount of times the RCMP shot him, from what i understand one should be enough to incapacitate you, but he was still spinning around on the ground.
As for stating they used the taser so they wouldn’t break a sweat, stupidist post i have seen in a long time. Police are trained to handle certain threats in certain ways. Them fanning out around the guy, yea, that would be intimidating - but thats the fucking point. And as for the 5 against 1 argument, are you serious? That polish guy was big, and obviously he had something going on that made him a little unstable - even five guys wrestling him to the ground would have taken a fair amount of force. If they had injured or accidentally killed him while doing it, it would have been called police brutatality. They responded as they probably have hundreds of times before; pull out the tasers and try to take him down peacefully. In this instance it was a no win situation, but the cops responded in an appropriate manner. In regards to the one cop putting his knee on the man’s neck, also relatively standard. Its part of the training, ensure that the man is down and no longer a threat to the police. Its all about threat reduction.
I am so sick and tired of this sort of over reaction. Are there instances of police brutality, of excessive use of force? Yes, of course. This was not one of them. To think they should be charged with manslaughter is beyond my comprehension to respond properly. I have been personally witness to a number of police take downs (not to me of course. i was working with the parks system at the time), and i have seen how quickly they react. Talking a person into calming down is there first reaction, but as clearly happened in this case that was of no help. Then if it escalates beyond talking, they react quickly to put an end to violence or the threat of violence. They do their fucking job, as they were trained to do. If this means reviewing standard police operating procedures in Canada, then fine, lets do that. But these guys reacted no differently than they had been trained.
Althouth i am curious about the lack of cpr, or waiting so long for paramedics.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:22 am
[quote comment="33117"]Are there instances of police brutality, of excessive use of force? Yes, of course. This was not one of them.[/quote]
This was not one of them? Why in the world did four RCMP officers forced to use a weapon to control a man that was doing no harm to them? He was violently breaking things, but he never attacked anyone…never had the time did he?
As far as “only” a few instances of death, the Taser Gun is supposed to CONTROL a suspect, not badly hurt or kill him. If it does, then it’s not doing its job and it should therefore either be better regulated (such as situations of use and/or power) or forbidden…
I’m sure you’d change your mind if someone around you was causing trouble and died, accidentally I agree, because of this weapon. But if it leads to death sometimes, it shouldn’t be used…
Condoning this situation is like saying they should have shot him…he may have died but at least they would have been able to control him…
November 15th, 2007 at 10:28 am
I’m pretty sure I heard three tazer blasts.. one before he comes out of the one area he’s in and then two more afterwards… sick… there were like 5 of them… 5 RCMP’s couldn’t take down one distraught guy without killing him?
November 15th, 2007 at 10:40 am
What gets me is… the security guys weren’t threatened at all. You see them looking around with their eyes off of the suspect when he is right infront of them. But the RCMP felt the need to use that kind of force? It’s ridiculous. Was there no interpretor on hand? You hear them keep mentioning that he only speaks Russian… was there nobody else in the airport able to interpret? Not even an employee of a European airline? I am confident the situation could have been de-escalated without any use of force at all.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:47 am
[quote comment="33066"]Does no one see that he grabs something just before he is tasered? It appears to me that he grabbed something and the way he lifts his right arm suggests to me that he wants to use it violently. Approximatley 6:47 into the video. If the RCMP officers observed a threat, which I believe they did, they immobilized it. I am not commenting on the subsequent shots with the taser, but the first one does, to me, seem warranted[/quote]
I believe it was a stapler that he had in his hand.
Although the man’s actions (throwing a computer, chairs, etc.) warranted a “response”, I wonder why the hell he was in the predicament he was in for so long? And I’ll bet that, come 2010, we’ll have plenty of “translators” who can assist people arriving in this country who speak another language and that no one will be forced into a situation like that. It must’ve been very agitating to be unable to get help or find direction.
My heart aches for that mother, who couldn’t find her son. I know that she’ll play that over in her mind for the rest of her days - the “if I’d only” thoughts.
The police almost looked “afraid” and were tentative in their response to the man. They seemed to stand around, looking to each other when they should’ve moved in swiftly and apprehended him until things were secured and everyone was safe. I’m quite sure they are trained to do so but they need to be unafraid and “take the bull by the horns” if you will. Or, if their initial response was in order to calm the man down, perhaps extending a glass of water or “showing” him that they were there to help him. Remember - he spoke no English so probably viewed the officers as a threat, rather than help. They should’ve tried to establish that they were “on his side” in order to gain his trust and calm him down. At one point, I thought things might’ve been moving in that direction, but quickly fell apart.
A tragic ending and, while I do understand that the man was acting very irrationally and posed a danger to police (not to others from what I saw), I’m quite sure that another tactic should’ve been employed. Can’t several police officers manage to subdue a man without having to kill him? If not, we’re all in trouble.
(Tanya - that was chilling to me too - the cop who thrust his knee into the man’s neck. There’s gotta be a better way?)
November 15th, 2007 at 10:47 am
Taken from the RCMP website (www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca):
MISSION - The RCMP is Canada’s national police service. Proud of our traditions and confident in meeting future challenges, we commit to preserve the peace, uphold the law and provide quality service in partnership with our communities.
VISION - We will:
* be a progressive, proactive and innovative organization
* provide the highest quality service through dynamic leadership, education and technology in partnership with the diverse communities we serve
* be accountable and efficient through shared decision-making
* ensure a healthy work environment that encourages team building, open communication and mutual respect
* promote safe communities
* demonstrate leadership in the pursuit of excellence
CORE VALUES OF THE RCMP - Recognizing the dedication of all employees, we will create and maintain an environment of individual safety, well-being and development. We are guided by:
* integrity
* honesty
* professionalism
* compassion
* respect
* accountability
COMMITMENT TO OUR COMMUNITIES - The employees of the RCMP are committed to our communities through:
* unbiased and respectful treatment of all people
* accountability
* mutual problem solving
* cultural sensitivity
* enhancement of public safety
* partnerships and consultation
* open and honest communication
* effective and efficient use of resources
* quality and time service
Where in any of this video did they display an unbiased and respectful treatment, cultural sensitivity, mutual problem solving, open and honest communication, effective and efficient use of resources, quality and time service?
In fact, I think their reaction to Mr. Dziekanski goes against everything they state in their mission, vision and core values.
Anyone that believes otherwise, doesn’t understand the intent of our national police force and instead relies too much on “what if” scenarios and american news stations.
There is nothing in the video that the RCMP should be proud of. Nor we, as Canadians who tend to romanticize our views of the red serge.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:00 am
I think that everyone commenting that the RCMP overreacted have never had training in avoiding altercations; the officers perceived a threat, but because of the angle of the camera, we can’t see everything they can, they subdued the man, and part of that is ensuring that he can’t get up; this involved one officer forcing his head down with his knee. I support thr RCMP in ensuring that this man was not given the capacity to hurt one of them, as he did pick up a weapon in my opinion. This man clearly showed an affinity for violence, shown in his actions with the computer and chair going through a window. Would you rather the RCMP tried to reason with the man who was clearly beyond, and have a chance of him hurting more people. I can’t be certain, but I have an inclination that no RCMP goes into a situation looking to kill someone with thier taser, and claiming that they had a vendeta against this man is ludacris.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:00 am
Shoot first, ask questions later. Hey, it’s standard operating procedure right?
The issue may be attitutude. Law enforcement professionals possibly consider the Taser, not as a weapon that has the ability to take someone’s life (In Canada alone there have been 18 reported fatalities as a result of the use of a Taser in the past 5 years) , but as a tool to assist them with thier job functions.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:06 am
Was this more of a preventative takedown? What if they waited and he attacked someone?
November 15th, 2007 at 11:19 am
[quote comment="33126"]Was this more of a preventative takedown? What if they waited and he attacked someone?[/quote]
That’s not the point really…not mine anyway.
I agree they had to control the man. But not that way.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:30 am
First, officers cannot employ overwhelming force unless their lives are in danger. even if he picked up an object, with four of them surrounding him, how are their lives in danger? Ten years ago they would have attempted to tackle him to the ground.
Second - international airports are places where people who speak entirely different languages travel through or to. So to say that he should have made arrangements elsewhere is ridiculous. Plus, those arrangements would have had no authority once he reached immigration.
As for watching a video from the comfort of my own home - how do you think an inquest will view it? None of them will have been there. true, they’ll get testimony as well, but an independent inquiry will base a lot of their decision on that video.
And I am sorry to say - the police are not above the law. When a person makes a mistake that breaks the law, they are not above it. That same rule applies to the police as well.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:30 am
[quote comment="33124"]I think that everyone commenting that the RCMP overreacted have never had training in avoiding altercations; the officers perceived a threat, but because of the angle of the camera, we can’t see everything they can, they subdued the man, and part of that is ensuring that he can’t get up; this involved one officer forcing his head down with his knee. I support thr RCMP in ensuring that this man was not given the capacity to hurt one of them, as he did pick up a weapon in my opinion. This man clearly showed an affinity for violence, shown in his actions with the computer and chair going through a window. Would you rather the RCMP tried to reason with the man who was clearly beyond, and have a chance of him hurting more people. I can’t be certain, but I have an inclination that no RCMP goes into a situation looking to kill someone with thier taser, and claiming that they had a vendeta against this man is ludacris.[/quote]
I think there are many things to be looked at. The first is why this man was in a “secure” area, yet no one was there? And why was he able to wander in and out of it….how is it “secure” if there are no security personnel or cameras monitoring what’s happening inside the area?
This should’ve never escalated as it did, with the man left so long in the state he was in. And I think that the first course of action for police/security would be to try and “diffuse” the situation and calm the man down. It doesn’t appear to me that that happened - of course, someone in an exhausted, confused, disoriented state is going to react aggressively to being ignored for so long and then to be surrounded by several police officers. I just think the whole “approach” to this was wrong from the beginning. And our airport security and the police should be better equipped to handle people who are in this state, without the use of excessive force as a first option. For a man who spent several hours of obvious frustration getting into this state of mind, it was mere minutes before he was dead. I think that better attempts to communicate with him and ensure him that he would be “helped” might’ve seen a different ending.
So, yes, I do wish the police had acted differently and had tried to calm the man down first. I would expect nothing less. I do understand that, with the recent killing of officers in the headlines, there is a lot of anxiety and nervousness and police should expect the unexpected. But I’m quite sure that they will encounter people in a similar state on a regular basis - I think the training is (or should be) there to use force as a last resort, but to try other methods first. They had the man seriously outnumbered and I think they should’ve been able to restrain him without killing him. I’m getting very repetitive here, because I believe that this could’ve been prevented with a few things in place (mostly at the airport level). I think the airport failed this man, as an international traveller who was unable to communicate or get assistance. And I think police failed him, as they reacted to him as a “threat” before they did as “a person”.
There are witness accounts on YouTube, and I urge you to play them all in order to formulate an opinion on things. From what I’ve heard, this man was let down bigtime.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=05vuY-kqp9o&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_3Ggpme5nUA
November 15th, 2007 at 11:31 am
Is there somewhere else to watch the video
November 15th, 2007 at 11:36 am
[quote comment="33118"][quote comment="33117"]Are there instances of police brutality, of excessive use of force? Yes, of course. This was not one of them.[/quote]
This was not one of them? Why in the world did four RCMP officers forced to use a weapon to control a man that was doing no harm to them? He was violently breaking things, but he never attacked anyone…never had the time did he?
As far as “only” a few instances of death, the Taser Gun is supposed to CONTROL a suspect, not badly hurt or kill him. If it does, then it’s not doing its job and it should therefore either be better regulated (such as situations of use and/or power) or forbidden…
I’m sure you’d change your mind if someone around you was causing trouble and died, accidentally I agree, because of this weapon. But if it leads to death sometimes, it shouldn’t be used…
Condoning this situation is like saying they should have shot him…he may have died but at least they would have been able to control him…[/quote]
You would rather that he did have the time to attack them then? Is it there job to wait for people to become agressive? Would you rather he took a swing at one of the cops, possibly injuring him? Contrary to what some people think, it is not the job of the RCMP to actually get hurt, nor should they. They put themselves in harms way, they do not need to do so further.
And i’m sure you’d change your mind if the cops didn’t have such a weapon, and somone you knew was killed because of it. I will repeat, for the amount that tasers are used, the percentage of people that react poorly to them - irregular heart beats, ect - is infentesmal. They have brought peaceful resolution to literally hundreds of thousands of situations. What is an acceptlible alternative then? If they had pulled out their batons and brought him down, they probably would have been brought up on brutality charges by a public that has no idea what the hell goes on in situations like these.
As for you analogy about shooting him, its wrong and does not work in this situation. They did not shoot him, they reacted with appropriate force as they have been trained to do.
Tania: Contrary to your blanket opinion about not understanding what the police force is intended to, i think it is you who is a little confused. This was not an open forum comittee with members of the polish comunity, this was not a roundhall discussion on cultural sensitivity. This was the police reacting as they are trained to a situation. If someone becomes violent, it does not matter what country they come from - the police are trained to respond.
Now, i don’t care if the man picked up a stapler. It didn’t look like a stapler to me, but there is no way to tell one way or the other. It doesn’t matter what it was. It was a weapon. In the video you cannot see everything that the police can, but by the time they first taser him he raises his hands and hes holding something. Thats a weapon. You don’t go around brandishing a weapon at the police, i don’t care if you’re a foreign national or not. Because if you change the training for every different situation then you have hesitation, and hesitation might and could result in a dead police officer.
And the police did not look hesitant to the situation, i’m not sure how you could get that from the video. They were dealing with the man peacefully at the beginning. They were bunched together talking to him just inside the doors there, but they did not fan out to surround him until he threw up his arms and walked away. Then they were talking to him, and we couldn’t see what he grabbed in the video, but you can tell when, because they police reacted immediately. A taser was fired, and the man already had in his hand whatever it was that he picked up.
Eight minutes into the video the recorder of the video says that the man is still struggling, after being tasered twice or three times, with four cops on him - despite the knee to the neck. And as for the knee, i have seen an RCMP use a baton to bring a man down, then the knee planted on the neck until another officer could cuff the man. It is standard procedure.
If the man had stayed calm and rational, to some degree, this would not have happened. The police were talking to him, he did something, they reacted. It was not a matter of shoot first ask questions later, you can see that much from the fucking video. They probably could have kept him standing there until some sort of translator showed up, but he went for a weapon and they took him down.
And police for years have been trying to wrestle suspects to the ground, but thats partly hollywood fiction that that sort of thing always works out. There have been instances of deaths, or cops having their guns stolen and turned on them. Pulling a big man like that down, especially in his agitated state, would have been no easy feat. And then, if for whatever reason he had died, it would have been police brutality.
They cannot win, because most people simply don’t know what they are talking about.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:38 am
I am curious as to why the police didn’t try to obtain an interpreter before they used the taser…in fact, it didn’t look like they attempted to gather any information about the man before swarming in at all (with the exception of someone calling out that they believed he spoke Russian).
Also, I would like to know why when the man stopped moving did the one officer not remove his knee from the guy’s neck. I mean, there were 3 other officers holding the man down at that point.
and to Eric-Head: it seems that when the second taser-ing was deployed on the man he was already subdued (with the exception of a few more spasms from the first charge). No one says this was some big premeditated thing where the cops ran in with bloodlust, but that they employed poorly managed conflict resolution tactics and I feel there was a complete lack of a real attempt to establish communication.
Kind of all seems like taser now -ask questions later, if you know what I mean.
which, mind you, the VPD are quite notorious for.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:46 am
[quote comment="33132"]You would rather that he did have the time to attack them then? Is it there job to wait for people to become agressive? Would you rather he took a swing at one of the cops, possibly injuring him? Contrary to what some people think, it is not the job of the RCMP to actually get hurt, nor should they. They put themselves in harms way, they do not need to do so further.[/quote]
Never ever said that, I would appreciate it if you would not put words in my mouth. What I meant was that they weren’t attacked. Then why did they need to use a weapon (A WEAPON) to control him. They were four officers and he was unarmed.
[quote comment="33132"]And i’m sure you’d change your mind if the cops didn’t have such a weapon, and somone you knew was killed because of it. I will repeat, for the amount that tasers are used, the percentage of people that react poorly to them - irregular heart beats, ect - is infentesmal. They have brought peaceful resolution to literally hundreds of thousands of situations. What is an acceptlible alternative then? If they had pulled out their batons and brought him down, they probably would have been brought up on brutality charges by a public that has no idea what the hell goes on in situations like these.[/quote]
No I wouldn’t change my mind. What if you were blowing a fuse but nonviolent to people, then I guess it would be ok to bring you down with a taser. And if you died after, it would be OK right? Because let me remind you that this man was not armed and did not harm anyone. And so no one was killed because of them. Furthermore, I’m not saying that we should absolutely ban them. I’m saying that they should be reconsidered and further studied. If they can’t guarantee that no one could die from the use of these weapons, then they should not be used.
[quote comment="33132"]As for you analogy about shooting him, its wrong and does not work in this situation. They did not shoot him, they reacted with appropriate force as they have been trained to do.[/quote]
Again I’ve never ever said that THEY might as well have shot him, I said that condoning a weapon that can be deadly is as safe as using a gun to shoot someone down “safely”. You know like policemen who shoot people in the leg for example. It’s the same thing.
Finally, I want to add that, even if we cannot see what the police could see, if he didn’t have a proper weapon, the tasers shouldn’t have been used. And again, if tasers can kill, then tasers should not be used to control people.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:47 am
The R.C.M.P had no right to use the force they did,by observing the video,looks like they were gonna tazzer him a 3rd time but didn t
November 15th, 2007 at 11:49 am
When the police arrives, he repeats the word “police”. Judging from the way he said it, he felt relieved that they had finally come, he probably thought someone had finally come to help him out after being held at an airport without nobody to talk to, in a foreign country after his first trip in a plane. We should also note that he was from a small town in Poland, so anything that he saw here was completely new to him.
for those interested (and that can’t understand polish), most of what he says in the beginning of the video is very agitated, and he says that he’s going to “break everything” and “report everyone”.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
thats so sad, …his poor mother.
any normal person can see just by watching the video that he was unnecessarily tasered…I see people get upset within our society all the time, and never get tasered. Unreal.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
[quote comment="33137"]thats so sad, …his poor mother.
any normal person can see just by watching the video that he was unnecessarily tasered…I see people get upset within our society all the time, and never get tasered. Unreal.[/quote]
I’ve just been called abnormal. Oh well….
“The trouble with normal is it always gets worse.”
November 15th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
when power is given to freely into the wrong hands.
did it freely take four men to stop this one guy. he was willing to talk to the lady its to bad they didn’t speak the same language. then calmly retreated backwards when the RCMP came in.
disgusting and appalling to say the least. i hope they get charged but something tells me they won’t.
so sad that an innocent man is dead. yes, he was throwing stuff, but if you couldn’t tell he was confused something was wrong.
i guess the airport failed to realize:
- Polish immigrant became agitated after being left waiting at airport for 10 hours
- Flight was first time he had been on a plane; he spoke no English
and they did no attempt to try and get someone to speak with him.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:50 pm
Even Amnesty is asking for the government to impose a moratory concerning the use of taser guns
http://www.amnistie.ca/images/stories/accueil/PDF/amr2000207.pdf
November 15th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
[quote comment="33133"]I am curious as to why the police didn’t try to obtain an interpreter before they used the taser…in fact, it didn’t look like they attempted to gather any information about the man before swarming in at all (with the exception of someone calling out that they believed he spoke Russian).
Also, I would like to know why when the man stopped moving did the one officer not remove his knee from the guy’s neck. I mean, there were 3 other officers holding the man down at that point.
and to Eric-Head: it seems that when the second taser-ing was deployed on the man he was already subdued (with the exception of a few more spasms from the first charge). No one says this was some big premeditated thing where the cops ran in with bloodlust, but that they employed poorly managed conflict resolution tactics and I feel there was a complete lack of a real attempt to establish communication.
Kind of all seems like taser now -ask questions later, if you know what I mean.
which, mind you, the VPD are quite notorious for.[/quote]
I completely, but respectfully disagree, I gather from what you’re saying is that instead of dissusing a dangerous situation for the RCMP they should have simply stood around and waited for a Russian interpreter, who would have been no good anyway as the man spoke Polish. Id like to see them try and communicate with him as he is weilding a weapon and completley incomprehsible. Generally, tasers are less lethal than firearms, thats why it was used. The RCMP are being painted as the bad guy simply because of the age we live in, everyone wants to be safe from violence and harm, but they seem to want to enforce the rules by putting daisys in gun barrels. This makes no sense, this man was a danger to everyone there, and that danger was dealt with by professionals
November 15th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
way too much force, if 4 guys can’t subdue a 40 year old man who is exhausted and had no weapons (he just got out of a plane 6 hours before), without breaking out their new toys, they are in the wrong line of work.
this is a black eye for canada
November 15th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
Dale, I ‘d like to address a few things:
“They were dealing with the man peacefully at the beginning. They were bunched together talking to him….”
But, at some point, they had to have realized that this was ineffective, as the man understood no English. A “bunch” of uniformed officers speaking a foreign language “at” him was probably extremely intimidating and added to this man’s anxiety . So “talking” to a man who doesn’t understand was pointless….they needed to find another way to “communicate” with him in an attempt to “calm him down”. Perhaps offering a cup of water or a chair, taking a more helpful approach. “Showing” him that someone was there to help him vs. “telling” him in a language that he did not understand. May seem ridiculous to you, but put yourself in this man’s shoes. Perhaps a “friendlier” approach was in order, despite his outburst. Fighting fire with fire isn’t always the best tactic and, in this case, I think that this man’s obvious agitation required some delicate handling (perhaps a “mediator” of some sort). But being “surrounded” by uniformed police hardly fits the bill and did nothing to “diffuse” the situation. Let’s face it, for all this man knew the police could’ve been saying “we’re taking you to detention now and if you don’t cooperate we’ll kill you”. He was from another country, things were “strange” to him. So I’m afraid the “talking” did little to help in this situation.
It’s time to revisit some of the “by the book” police actions if the people they are in place to “serve” (as well as “protect”) are being killed. Perhaps the “people who don’t know what they’re talking about” have some answers that you’re not seeing?
This man was left unaided for a long time and in an obvious state of distress. Where was the intervention? How did it get to this point? I’m afraid that his death took mere minutes and I feel that he was owed more than that. A situation that developed over hours probably required a little more time to “undo”.
My last comment on this as I’m heading off to visit my Dad.
It’s not an easy subject, but definitely one that needs discussing.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
Here we see yet another example of “boys and there toys” Police misconduct is nothing new only now once and while they get caught on video. I myself have footage of police misconduct that believe it or not was buried so fast it would make your head spin.
Everyone’s made some interesting remarks but overlooked what I think is an interesting fact:
Death by electric chair consists of an 8 second charge of 2,450 volts then a 20 second charge of only 480 volts. This poor man was hit with 50,000 volts not once but twice. Now I’m no doctor but I have a hard time believing this method of subduing a person of “threat” would not cause irreversible damage to ones organs or in this case death. In fact humans have died with as little as 32 volts passing through there bodies. Note: the area of the body is key; any charge to the chest or head greatly increases the risk of fatality.
As defined an Electric shock can cause tissue damage or fibrillation if high enough. A fatal electric shock is referred to as an ELECTROCUTION.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
“Tania: Contrary to your blanket opinion about not understanding what the police force is intended to, i think it is you who is a little confused. This was not an open forum comittee with members of the polish comunity, this was not a roundhall discussion on cultural sensitivity. This was the police reacting as they are trained to a situation. If someone becomes violent, it does not matter what country they come from - the police are trained to respond.”
I’m not confused at all. I used to facilitate cross-cultural training for officers new to my remote/rural area and the different types of ethnic communities they would be working for.
The police were OVER-reacting to a situation they didn’t know anything about. If they did, I highly doubt their first reaction to someone who was held in an airport without the assistance of a translator would have been vastly different than approaching with taser in hand ready to subdue someone.
The police, as they always say, are there to serve and protect. Serve and protect who? They did not serve the country in this instance and I doubt their actions were done to protect themselves.
In a four against one fight and the person is only armed with an alleged stapler, and the other side is armed with guns, batons and tasers, it’s not a fair “fight” so to speak.
I have respect for officers, having worked with a bunch of them, and maintaining contact with a few of them. However they are not fallible human beings. They make mistakes in judgement and there are cops who are not befitting of the uniform they wear. I will not blanketly stand behind them or give them the benefit of the doubt. I will give the benefit of the doubt to the victim’s behaviour. If he were going to cause harm to people, why was a woman without any weapons at all able to approach him, not speaking his language, and not be harmed? If they public servants do something wrong while serving our country, they should be held accountable.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
What would have happened if tasers were taken out of the equation?
At absolute worst, the man would have wound up with a gunshot in the leg to prevent any further harm or destruction. Maybe some sore red eyes. At best, the police would have to fall back on the decades of de-escalation techniques that they used prior to being equipped with tasers. A Russian interpreter would not have been able to understand much of what was said but would have been able to give a better indication of what language he *was* speaking in.
And his mother would not have had to bury him.
When the hell did police forget that they are also trained in peaceful conflict resolution? You don’t need to speak the same language to be able to accomplish a great deal.
I want to know what happened to him in the hours after he arrived (because you can bet your ass if he had been anything but docile on the plane… it would have made the news. 6 hours stuck in immigration? I’d be livid if it were me, and I speak the language. The man had a passport that he had obviously had to bring out to identify himself with at Customs. It should have been a very easy thing to verify not only who he was….but what language he was speaking.
I refuse to watch the video, I’ve seen enough people die without having to witness it on purpose, but I have to question the statement by the police to disregard the video as only “one point of view”. It ceases to become a witness point of view when there is recording. It becomes evidence.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
Why is it ridiculous for him or his family to try and arrange for some sort of support or assistance when he arrives in Canada?
I liken it to sending a child or a handicapped person off somewhere where they don’t really know what to expect when they get there. Why was he traveling alone?
November 15th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
His mother was supposed to meet him there, but there was a misunderstanding apparently
November 15th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
I travel all the time, nearly always alone and once and a while to countries where english isn’t spoken at all. Even landing in Tokyo last time I had a hard time explaining to people what I was doing there.
It’s difficult being in that environment, but fairly normal in international airports. Even in Ottawa airport a few weeks ago (which isn’t really a huge Canadian airport), I heard multiple requests on the PA system for people who spoke various languages. I can only assume those were for people like Robert who couldn’t communicate in the native language. I don’t think it’s unreasonable that he didn’t have any arrangements when landing.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
That story made me think of a man who was killed in a very similar circumstance in my hometown, when Police used tazers on him. He was very stressed at the time (as is my understanding) and it seems that there should be a closer look at how these things are used and the potential for killing people.
Look at this site:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/map-tasers-canada/
November 15th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
Skynet, volts are more commonly mentioned, but current is actually much more damaging to the human body, and with voltage that low on the electric chair I would assume that the amount of current used with them is actually a more significant number. As for current and whether it applies to tasers or what range they employ if they do at all, I’m unsure.
It would make sense, because otherwise it doesnt make sense that something they use to kill people (100% of the time) would be less deadly (by your voltage example) than something used to neutralize people, which can ON OCCASION be deadly.
I may be wrong, but from what I remember this is true.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
What about traveling alone if shouldn’t have been traveling alone? (I’m wondering if he wasn’t mentally fit to be traveling by himself).
Was he supposed to be on medication (did he have a history of mental illness?)
November 15th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
Unbelievable. To be feeling lost and confused, and misunderstood. And to act out in frustration, only to be surrounded, terrorized and then killed. Such a shame, what an unnescesary loss. I have to wonder what the stick that was being thrust made contact with, and what that may have had to do with the death.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
We can theorize all day between all the different personalities present on this forum.
Was the man a potential threat? Was the man tired? Etc, Etc., but I think the bottom line is this:
Where does authority draw the line? What kind of protocol are they following? Is it correct? Is it wrong? Etc.,
Can we expect the same resolution of the RCMP in similar situations? Is this the new era of employed military tactics? These are questions we need to ask of ourselves and of our democracy. This example, however unfortunate it may seem, needs to be embraced by the people to promote a change in laws and to exercise our rights and freedoms as people. Immigrants or not. We are all one.
I think speculating on the loss of this man’s life is somewhat important, but more importantly we need to visualize “walking in his shoes,” and seeing the world and the frustration through his EYES. Only then can we truly see the truth of what this man perceived. In fact you could probably sum up the RCMP as a mob, considering the circumstance. And should that mob be a law unto themselves? Maybe look through the eyes of the RCMP? Did they know how powerful the taser was? Was it the first time that specific cop had ever used one? Why did they feel the need to taser the man, rather than simply restrain him? And what is the reasoning behind the non-use of restraint, considering there was four other officers present? And you know what I personally would like to know is: WHERE THE HELL EVERYONE ELSE WAS? They had time to record it, but nothing to say. Nothing to lobby against. Nothing to fight for? Like, WHO ARE WE?
A huge problem with society today is that there is a strong movement towards individualism, where no one is willing to see things from another persons point of view and to focus only on your own future and who you are as an individual. This immature ME, ME, ME attitude that is promoting itself globally, bringing with it a higher platform of capitalism than ever encountered before. Why try to straighten out a relationship when there are thousands of other people to choose from? Why try to help out the poor and needy if it takes from your wallet? Why see the world from another persons shoes? If doesn’t help you or ME, why bother? When we choose to live this way, we choose to live like barbarians. And ALL-OUT, everyone for themselves.
It is very sad indeed that this man lost his life. It is even more remorseful that his own mother is forced to wear the burden of his death - she was there, but could not REACH her BABY BOY. I cannot express that statement any more than that. BABY BOY! Can you imagine? It’s like the mother who lost her child at the fair! There one minute, gone the next. But even worse is the knowledge of knowing you were only so far away from embracing your loved one before they were tragically taken away from you. And for what?
Let this man’s life not be in vain. I hope his lawyer(s) search vigilantly for the truth and expose our current authority for what it’s turning into…A POLICE STATE.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
Having just watched the video I am appalled at what occured. Yes, the man looked to have something possibly wrong with him, but the police used excessive force on him. The man was no real threat, especially to 4 four highly trained and well protected police officers. I don’t even see a reason to brandish a taser gun, let alone shoot the man at least twice.
To see this occur does not make me feel safe at all. It just shows that the police are willing to ignore possible alternatives and go straight to force, even if it’s “non-lethal” force.
I hope these cops face the serious consequences for their unnecessary actions.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:04 pm
I’m too scared to watch this video of a man dying. However, I don’t thik I need to to understand it was unjust.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:04 pm
I just saw the part of the video where the taser is used on CNN. I’ve read a lot of good comments here.
MY first thought is concern that the RCMP officers backed him up against a wall and had an obviously distressed man in a fight or flight situation. The trouble is that the “flight” option was eliminated by the four officers. Sure, he had something in his hand but I remember a case some years ago where a man was aquitted for killing a police officer after his lawyers established to a jury that the man feared for his life because of the actions of the officer.
I have seen people get very upset and frustrated and confused when dealing with immigration and none of them were in the secondary inspection area for even one hour let alone eight like this man.
Here was a man who flew to Canada from Poland with what I have too assume were proper documents because he was in the area where passengers who have been admitted to the country exit. So when his plane touched down I would imagine that he thought he would walk into the immigration and customs hall, get his passport stamped, get his luggage, and walk out to see his mother waiting for him.
Eight hours.
You know, even I get a little anxious at the U.S. border trying to anticipate what dumb questions I’ll get asked when I hand over my U.S. passport to the inspector. I can only imagine what any of you might have to say, or what shape you would be in if you went down to hunt high loonie power bargains in the U.S. and were delayed eight hours by inspectors after waiting over an hour in line. If you saw people come in after you and leave before you with smiles to go meet up with their friends. Then by the time you got out all the stores were closed and the restaurants were closed. Then maybe you made a comment at the people who didn’t seem to care about you at all and were surrounded by four officers, one of whom had his hand on his gun as he approached.
Did you see the constable with his hand on his gun?
It’s very possible that this man had not slept in 24 hours and had very little to eat. The witnesses interviewed stated that they never felt threatened by the man.
I saw a documentary on the Grateful Dead tours. They traveled with a team of doctors and nurses trained specifically to handle anything that might come up with concert goers. The thing that impressed me the most is how they handled bad acid trips. They had a tent with low lights and soothing music and staff to speak calmly in order to talk very paranoid an panicky people down from the trip. It was many times more effective than bright white light hospital emergency rooms.
That’s the training that needs to be going on now with both RCMP Officers and Customs/Immigration Officers at the airport. This man was hanging on by a thread and he should have been talked down. It certainly looked like one woman was having some success. What ended up happening is that his thread was cut.
This was a terrible tragedy that cannot be undone. But now some steps can certainly be taken to prevent it from happening again.
Now these are MY PERSONAL thoughts on the situation and they are based on my 20 years experience in law enforcement. I did not touch on many things that some of you have mentioned on “non-lethal” weapons because many of you have said things that I would only repeat.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Just to pose this question to you guys, if he did go nuts and started assaulting people…we would all be on here criticizing the police for lack of action….then when they do take action (Ill admit, seemed to be a bit more force than needed) we criticize them for taking action. This is a classic damned if you do damned if you dont scenario for the police….I kinda feel for the cops who take nothing but abuse from the public and media no matter how they handle any situation. To me it looks like they were trying to resolve the situation as quickly as possible, and that would be to subdue the man and sort things out later…..unfortunate consequences occured due to an error in judgement….
November 15th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
“Look out, he has a stapler!!!”
For god’s sake, stop using the ‘he had a weapon’ argument. He did not have a weapon, he had a blunt instrument that only does minimal harm when you press it into someone. Move an inch back and it won’t do a thing. I can only imagine if a relative of mine who didn’t speak English went through this same thing when arriving to this country as my guest… This whole situation really hits me hard, and to think some people are trying to justify this with procedural rhetoric, its beyond me. The people who passed by and did nothing to help this man are equally at fault, it’s not just the officers’ fault. If there are two things you’d expect from Canada it’s being sensitive to other cultures (having someone who speaks his language around) and caring for those with mental problems (which he may have been exhibiting). But as Becca Steps points out, it looks like individualism and this ever-present fear of the unexpected, brought on by post-9/11 rhetorical nonsense, won out over human decency and restraint.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
That poor guy was probably super frustrated, tired, hungry, upset… I probably would have eratic behavior too if I was confined in an airport in that condition with no one that spoke my language.
November 15th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
[quote comment="33164"]Just to pose this question to you guys, if he did go nuts and started assaulting people…we would all be on here criticizing the police for lack of action….then when they do take action (Ill admit, seemed to be a bit more force than needed) we criticize them for taking action. This is a classic damned if you do damned if you dont scenario for the police….I kinda feel for the cops who take nothing but abuse from the public and media no matter how they handle any situation. To me it looks like they were trying to resolve the situation as quickly as possible, and that would be to subdue the man and sort things out later…..unfortunate consequences occured due to an error in judgement….[/quote]
I wonder if his mother considers the consequences “unfortunate” and if it consoles her that it was “an error in judgement”. This was a man’s life and a pretty big deal here, please don’t treat it like someone tore someone’s jacket.
“If” he did start assaulting people we’d have a whole different situation but he didn’t, so let’s stick to what did happen as that’s the only thing that matters here. It gives the cops an easy out if you “predict” things and justify their actions based on what sometimes happens or what might’ve happened. We need to examine what DID happen and nothing more.
November 15th, 2007 at 5:52 pm
In the movies when an eastern european man gets stranded in an airport he ends up with Katherine Zeta-Jones, in real life he ends up dead after having 50,000 volts coursing through his body. It doesn’t seem fair somehow.
The deep federal cutbacks over the years have had a serious effect on our national police force that once had a reputation for professionlism and restraint. Officers no longer receive the same comprehensive training they once did and most detachments are understaffed. This puts both officers and civilians at risk. In the last several years there have been at least eight mounties killed on the job many of them new members. The officer killed most recently in Nunavut hadn’t even finished his six months field pratical training before being posted to the remote detachment. He was also responding alone.
RCMP members are much more willing to use force now than before also. The rookie officer that shot the unarmed Houston teen in his custody is now posted to the local detachment here, making more than few people nervous.
Clearly there needs to be more funding both for comprehensive training and for new members to bring the force up to strength. Do federal budget surpluses make sense when adequate services like policing aren’t being provided?
I’m listening to CBC radio right now and they’re mentioning that the officer who is seen on the video placing his knee on the back of Mr. Dziekanski when he’s on the ground is breaking the law. There could very well be grounds for a manslaughter charge in this case.
November 15th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
[quote comment="33141"][quote comment="33133"]I am curious as to why the police didn’t try to obtain an interpreter before they used the taser…in fact, it didn’t look like they attempted to gather any information about the man before swarming in at all (with the exception of someone calling out that they believed he spoke Russian).
Also, I would like to know why when the man stopped moving did the one officer not remove his knee from the guy’s neck. I mean, there were 3 other officers holding the man down at that point.
and to Eric-Head: it seems that when the second taser-ing was deployed on the man he was already subdued (with the exception of a few more spasms from the first charge). No one says this was some big premeditated thing where the cops ran in with bloodlust, but that they employed poorly managed conflict resolution tactics and I feel there was a complete lack of a real attempt to establish communication.
Kind of all seems like taser now -ask questions later, if you know what I mean.
which, mind you, the VPD are quite notorious for.[/quote]
I completely, but respectfully disagree, I gather from what you’re saying is that instead of diffusing a dangerous situation for the RCMP they should have simply stood around and waited for a Russian interpreter, who would have been no good anyway as the man spoke Polish. Id like to see them try and communicate with him as he is wielding a weapon and completely incomprehensible. Generally, tasers are less lethal than firearms, thats why it was used. The RCMP are being painted as the bad guy simply because of the age we live in, everyone wants to be safe from violence and harm, but they seem to want to enforce the rules by putting daisies in gun barrels. This makes no sense, this man was a danger to everyone there, and that danger was dealt with by professionals[/quote]
I appreciate your response…but I do not believe I ever stated that I believed he was Russian…I did quote what one person said in the tape regarding their guess as to what language the man was speaking, but I am well aware he was Polish…I am Polish…my point is that had the RCMP spoken with any airport official or customs person before approaching the man they would have been provided with all pertinent info as to his nationality and spoken language… I’m not saying the police should have sat in the background filing their nails in wait of some interpretor, but like has been expressed above by many others: this was an international airport, and a quick word with customs could have identified this man who surely had to come through on his way off the plane. I also don’t believe he was putting anyone in serious enough harm to be approached and taken down within 30 seconds of RCMP arriving in the terminal…I mean, he was in an isolated area, there was no one inside the area, and Airport Security had contained him thus far…I’m sure they could hold him off a bit longer…and the guy tossed a computer and chair (probably out of frustration)…he didn’t have a bomb, or a gun…he was holding a stapler when he was tasered….a fucking stapler, dude. I think it was all in an attempt to cause disturbance in order to obtain assistance for himself after ten hours in the airport alone.
and if that’s the way Professionals do things (the whole immobilize, take down, haul off to jail -then assist mentality) , I’d hate to see an amateur or rookie…
which brings to light another huge issue: What will Poland think? I mean a Polish citizen comes over here to move in with his mother, and gets a tasering and knee to the back of the neck…ends up dead…what kind of international implications could this have?
November 15th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
[quote comment="33061"]Oh, don’t get me wrong. Given the video, they should be charged with manslaughter at the very least.[/quote]
You people are unbelievable. Manslaughter? Thank god we don’t go based on the simple video. There were portions missing (editted) and his previous behaviour was not captured on film. Not to mention the integral part where the cameraman was moving to try and get a better view.
You people seem to think that the use of force is some sort of step principle where you must go through a progression before moving on to the next. You don’t start at the bottom and work your way up, you begin at the appropriate level. To suggest that the four RCMP weren’t provided with some background is to believe that they are indeed cowboys just looking for a scrap. Do you honestly believe that these four Mounties wanted to kill someone? That they would be so reckless and then cavalier about the death of someone?
You are not in a position to see the hands (the threat area) of the dead guy and if it can be articulated, and I’m fairly certain it will be, that this guy was exhibiting combative behaviour, then the use of the taser is justified. Perhaps you would have preferred to see this guy get thumped out and then dog-piled? The taser is used as an intermediary control technique that puts the risk to the police and the suspect at a minimum. Its use and the death of this man is at best a spurious correlation. If the baton or pepper spray had been used it would have been just as likely that this man would have died.
Police deal with people at their worst; maybe you people should walk a beat one time or work a reserve and deal with somebody who is freaking out. But I suppose you would all be at an advantage since your mind-reading and hind-sight is so perfect. Assholes.
November 15th, 2007 at 7:44 pm
Police sign on to deal with people at their worst and should be able to handle it accordingly. We are not “assholes” for questioning things or demanding that they do everything in their power to resolve things without someone ending up dead.
Police do a job that puts their lives at risk every day and should be commended for that. That does not, however, make them infallible or give them an “excuse” to go beyond what is called for in any given situation. And when they do, you better believe they owe some explanations.
It has nothing to do with “mind reading”…we are basing our opinions on testimony & video from those who witnessed the incident. And the fact that the police didn’t want to return the video and wouldn’t do so until threatened with legal action spoke volumes for me…what’s to hide?
Police do a dangerous job but that does not give them a free pass to take lives.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
Not one comment here that I’ve read has even remotely suggested that the officers wanted to kill someone. And how unbelievably ignorant of you to even suggest that it is the motivator behind any comment here.
“You people seem to think that the use of force is some sort of step principle where you must go through a progression before moving on to the next. You don’t start at the bottom and work your way up, you begin at the appropriate level.”
One SHOULD start at the bottom and work their way up. Hostage negotiators begin by friendly talks with the people who are holding others by pressing the barrels of guns to their heads. Why on earth would/should it be any different for any other member utilizing a de-escalation technique? When a peace officer (please note the word ‘peace’) is unable to enter a situation unless they rise to a certain level of tension and stress… I see no possible way for said situation to end well. The goal is to bring the target *down*.
Not all of us are mindless twits. If I know stress management and de-escalation techniques, I have to wonder. Why the fuck don’t our police officers?
November 15th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
[quote comment="33200"]Police sign on to deal with people at their worst and should be able to handle it accordingly. We are not “assholes” for questioning things or demanding that they do everything in their power to resolve things without someone ending up dead.
Police do a job