‘Islamofascism’
For those of you that signed up for an account for the purpose of commenting on my recent entry regarding Ezra Levant and the larger issue of the publication of the Danish cartoons, please keep in mind that, unlike other sites, we have policies that clearly define what we consider appropriate discourse.
One thing I will not tolerate is wholly irrational, xenophobic, and bigoted individuals leaving comments that openly call me anti-Semitic and sympathetic to terrorists, or ‘Islamofacists’ as has become the popular term amongst many that have no actual understanding of the definition of fascism, an ideology that is decided opposed to religious inclusion as it detracts from the concept of nationalistic authoritarianism.
As I have stated in the past, the North American political misrepresentation of what is technically rightwing and leftwing has been entirely skewed. Leon Trotsky was a leftist, which is a far cry from the American Civil Liberties Union.
With regards to painting 2 billion inhabitants of the planet as potential terrorists, and claiming that their way of life, because of their religious beliefs, is steeped in intolerance, one wonders if the majority of the world’s history books have been dumped into the ocean so as to provide a massive displacement of what Christianity got up to for the better part of 1,500 years at the hands of radical zealots and imperial dreamers. While there certainly is no defending those of the Muslim faith that would employ violent threats against others, or that believe in the ultimate subjugation of other societies with regards to the implementation of Islamic law, it is ignorant to overlook the fact that, when compared to the global and vastly devastating conquests of Christian nations, the Islamic world historically has far less blood on its hands. Were that not the case, one would imagine that vast swaths of Latin America would currently be speaking Persian or Arabic, having had their ancestors decimated by numerous Islamic conquests in the New World.
That is not to say that there weren’t Islamic conquests in the past, but certainly not on the scale of those of the Christian world enacted through loyal proxies that had at their disposal forces of considerable might.
Of course, it can be argued that it isn’t the same thing, that Christians never flew airplanes into buildings killing thousands of innocents. To that I would ask one simple question. Which is worse, a terrorist act carried out by a handful of individuals that believed in a warped ideology, or the army of Cortés, sanctioned by Charles V and the Vatican, engaging in genocidal practices in the New World? Simply because one took place four and a half centuries ago and the other seven years ago does not make them any less relatable in their infamy.
Given the vitriol aimed at Muslim communities throughout the world because of massive generalizations since 9/11, it’s easy to see why many Muslims are angry, and why they might find themselves acting in a fashion that they might not otherwise. Persecution has that affect. Again, that is not to say that there aren’t those looking to capitalize on it and warp it for their own purposes, a phenomenon that is, by no means, limited to the Muslim world. Those that would engage in such behaviour are, in truth, the real problem, as are those that believe in denying the fundamental human rights of others based on religious doctrine or the use of it for the sake of appearance to maintain power (the House of Saud provides a perfect example of this).
Put in another light; look at the response of many Americans to how they have been stereotyped by others throughout the world because of the unscrupulous actions of the current administration. There is no questioning the fact that, since the adoption of the Wolfowitz Doctrine as official US foreign policy in late 2001, the United States has done things that many Americans adamantly disagree with now that they have seen the fruit that that policy has produced. In some cases, it has encouraged some US religious leaders to make wild claims regarding everything from Islam to homosexuality. They have even promoted the use of violence, such as Pat Robertson’s assertion that Hugo Chavez be assassinated.
Do Americans protest at foreign embassies because of the publication of cartoons resulting in elements within that assembly turning to violence? Not of late. Then again, on the other side of the coin, we are talking about a country that up until fifty some odd years ago was still witnessing the violent murders of African Americans for simply having the audacity to demand their rights under the Constitution. Of course, those that opposed the Civil Rights movement were in the minority, but it doesn’t detract from the fact that an element did exist in the country that was opposed to what we now view as something that is only right and proper.
Ultimately, the employment of violent threats against those that would publish cartoons is utterly ridiculous. But what it is not is a representation of an entire religion.
All of that said, there are plenty of sites on the web that welcome the views of those that would, without hesitation, stereotype an entire religion based on the actions of a small percentage of it. I would suggest to those that are inclined in that direction to frequent them rather than this website. Because I do not view it as a matter of free speech, I view it as a matter of willful ignorance and bigotry.
In Addition
Content edited at 2:44 PM PST.
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January 16th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Gotta say that homepage banner is rather annoying.
January 16th, 2008 at 11:28 am
We will get used to the orange, just in time for you guys to change everything up again! : )
January 16th, 2008 at 11:33 am
Personally I prefer the orange.
January 16th, 2008 at 11:39 am
I find the grey text and font too cold for my liking. Home page a bit too bleak in colour. In all honesty, I really like the layout, colours and choice of fonts on Keira’s website. Your website rocks Keira! Sorry Dale and Matt, I can appreciate this site is more complex; however, I have to be honest.
January 16th, 2008 at 11:39 am
I like the new layout. It’s simple, the colors blend well, and nothing is too flashy.
High five!
January 16th, 2008 at 11:43 am
Its bright on my monitor.. but then again I am not the most computer proficent person. I do happen to like how the *posting* box is.. I can read it better. The orange is FLYERS orange.. so I think I am going to like it.. just going to take time. But the I happen to like the Lifestream feature.. but then again, if not everyone was using it like I was, then it needed to go away.. It does have a cleaner look to it, though. Nice work!!
January 16th, 2008 at 11:43 am
I’ll keep coming to this page no matter what colour the links are.
January 16th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
I’m all over the orange…
January 16th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Matt,
Thanks for the clarity of Lifestream.
Sorry so many view the world in black and white and are filled with ignorance towards other religions and cultures.
I have many friends from the Middle East and I like to ask them for their take on what’s going on and why things are different. I’d rather understand than just cast judgment.
There’s a good book / author I wrote to “discussion@matthewgood.org” about Children of Jihad. I think the comments the writer, Jared Cohen, expressed on the Stephen Colbert report last night were really eye-opening for many in the Western World.
The book refers to the youth (30-something and under) in the Middle East and how they are not all that dissimilar to Westerners. And the shocker, they were given cellphones, air conditioned tents, and $50/day to travel and participate in a rally chanting “Death to America” for news reels.
That was quite unexpected.
January 16th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
[quote comment="38849"]I find the grey text and font too cold for my liking. Home page a bit too bleak in colour. In all honesty, I really like the layout, colours and choice of fonts on Keira’s website.
Your website rocks Keira! Sorry Dale and Matt, I can appreciate this site is more complex; however, I have to be honest.[/quote]
I designed Keira’s site.
January 16th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
no one expected the Spanish Inquisition…
January 16th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
Color very boring. Old newspaper - Halloween look. Makes me not want to read. Just my opinion. We all have our own taste.
January 16th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Brilliant. Thank you for that.
I myself find it difficult to admit that I’m a Lebanese Muslim. Not because I’m ashamed or fear the consequences of admitting such, but instead I hesitate due to the ignorant comments that are thrown at me upon discovering my background. I grow very tired trying to defend my own beliefs when there is no need for me to do so. I wouldn’t expect that of anyone else. Using God as a means to justify killing, to me, is not a valid reason. And should never be used as a means of justification. God isn’t only used as a weapon by Muslims but rather other religions. As pointed out by Matt. The ignorance of course has amplified since 9/11. I loathe bringing that date up only because I deem it a small scratch on the surface of injustice that plagues numerous parts of the world on an hourly basis. Unfortunately when speaking of my religion it’s a given that there will be reference to that day.
I myself do not look like I’m from Arabic decent. My skin is very white and I obtain really no strong Arabic like features. So it’s interesting to me to be a part of a conversation where the other person considers me Caucasian, then later after discovering where I come from, questions that I wouldn’t dare ask anyone arise. And from that point on I have to deal with snarky comments and prosecution in relation to my religious beliefs. Not only is it frustrating but also very freighting considering I’m living in a 1st world country that harbors a plethora of different people.
It’s not fair to assume that I, or any other fellow Muslim agrees with whatever incident may have taken place in the name of “God”. It’s not fair to assume that I hate all Americans. And hold a grudge. If we’re going to play this game, then I suggest we start playing it with all sectors of any religion.
January 16th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
you’re right the colour is good, but i think that because the orange is so bright, and nothing else really is, i think maybe another colour should be added to balance it out… just one person’s oppinion.
and wow, who knew one post could cause such a heated debate lol.
January 16th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Just wanted to let everyone know that “the Daily show with Jon Stewart”….oh wait I’m sorry “A Daily show” is back on the air. The reason I’m writing about this is because Monday night he had a great segment about the republicans and a segment about “islamofacists” near the end.
Go to http://www.thecomedynetwork.ca/shows/videolist.aspx?sid=3350
Click on “the daily show last 30 days”
Scroll down and click on the link for Jan 14th
It’s a bit long but worth it!
January 16th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
The top header part of the site kinda looks like a google ad. Still I like the new layout!
January 16th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
personally, i’m a fan of greys. and accent colours are good. maybe because of the quantity of grey though, a second accent colour would be good? i’m thinking green. it always adds a pop. and green can represent growth (plants and nature), and green means go. it has to be the right kind of green however, but i’m sure you’ll find it.
i would think maybe something at the top of the page with green. that way the accent colours don’t mix and there’s more distinction between content and navigation.
January 16th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
brown, orange > all colours… especially red.
January 16th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
[quote comment="38868"]Just wanted to let everyone know that “the Daily show with Jon Stewart”….oh wait I’m sorry “A Daily show” is back on the air. The reason I’m writing about this is because Monday night he had a great segment about the republicans and a segment about “islamofacists” near the end.
Go to http://www.thecomedynetwork.ca/shows/videolist.aspx?sid=3350
Click on “the daily show last 30 days”
Scroll down and click on the link for Jan 14th
It’s a bit long but worth it![/quote]
Stephen Colbert conducted an interview with Jared Cohen, who wrote a book about the younger generation (whom make up 60% of the population) in the Middle East.
It seems that, probably since John Stewart helped Colbert start his show, both seem to share a similar “plot” for subject discussions regarding the Middle East (although Colbert usually brings up these topics in “interviews”).
My favourite from last Thursday:
Guess [i forget his name] “Obama and Clinton do not really have all that much experience in foreign policy and that is..”
Colbert [cuts in] “… But you don’t need to know anything about foreign policy… President Bush has proven that already”
January 16th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
I don’t really care what the colors are.
Grey is good.
I really liked the main body of this post. It’s very interesting how the Christian vs Islam can be so one sided when it comes to the American powers that be and their attitudes towards keeping score on each side. I think the best thing you said was in regards to an entire religion being judged by the actions of a few. Sadly, a majority of the world will still continue to uphold a radical fringe group’s beliefs as representation for an entire faith and it’s followers…and the Christian Fundamentalist Republican leaders: self righteous as always.
January 16th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
hi.
im disapointed that the forums are gone.
a chance to(try to)start discussions for those that arent official authors on this site.
*
January 16th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Site looks fine, long as the text is readable I’ll keep coming :)
As for the meat of this post…
I am not a religious person. I dislike irrational belief and can’t understand how people can accept fundamentalist ideals so easily.
The problem we have going on now is how easy it is to just call someone a bigot if they even mention a bad thing about a religion. This goes to the Christians who defend themselves at no end in the states and to the Islamic people of the middle east. It seems that if you even mention that the fundamentalists are wrong for dong the things you do you are branded intolerant of their beliefs right away and for the most part ill equipped to debate it.
Sure there are lots and lots of Muslims, Christians, and so on that live great well meaning lives (the vast vast majority). But my point is that it is so ridiculous for discussing the problems with their fundamentalist sects to be so taboo just because it is a religion. There are a lot of good things with every religion, but why in the name of moderation should we never point out the bad, or worse still be branded bigoted idiots for even trying to? It is silly to me for the moderate majorities of religions to allow the fanatics safe haven by propagating this taboo on any disagreement with a faith being instantly defamatory and intolerant.
-cheers
January 16th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
The fact that the header text at the top of the page is smaller and less flashy is great for those of us who are on the site at work and don’t need people sneaking in and seeing that we aren’t working. LEAVE IT AS IT IS!! Besides, guys who use big logos are just compensating…
January 16th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Those who attack you are betraying their ignorance and simplemindedness
January 16th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Matt, you know a few of us here are Muslim and have a great knowledge of our religion but its so surprising to us, me in particular, when someone who is not of our faith, UNDERSTAND it much better then some of us do. You speak with the knowledge of a man who has lived many lives. I can not say how much I appriciate the fact that you dont talk out your ass in regards to Islam and really take the time to learn what you can about it.
On a side note, you know I am here with my mother, and my father was visiting. He read this entry of yours and was completely dumbfounded. His words were ( and I am quoting )
“If every Amercian or even Christian took the time to speak as he does and to learn as he has, then perhaps, this world would be a better place.”
You impressed my Dad.. thats no easy task. And you didn’t even try.
My hats off to you, your kick ass.
January 16th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Whenever someone breaks out the old “Islamofacists” on me, a vein on my neck bulges out and my right eye starts twitching and start seeing flashes of all the web pages that ask if you want to receive “free ann coulter” emails. (disclaimer: To begin receiving ann’s email you may be required to pay a one time fee of your soul)
January 16th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Wow, even after reading your update Matt, I seriously underestimated the number of people who are discussing the new colour scheme rather than the actual topic at hand (which sort of takes away from the seriousness of the post).
As for your recent post, I noticed a few of those same comments that you’re talking about. The one that talked about how Muslims use violence when they’re offended was particularly disturbing, not only because it has a pretty stereotypical view of an entire (extremely large) group of people, but because it frightens me that people are able to make such serious accusations while completely ignoring Christianity’s history. Pretending to understand Muslim culture by watching the local news is like trying to understand life in the 1970’s by watching That 70’s Show; what you’re watching may represent a few people, but it’s far from the norm. It’s simply what we want to see and what gets ratings.
Matt already commented on the bloody past for Christianity, and I’m sure that I’m not the only one that had the word “Crusades” pop into their mind when that individual brought up Muslim’s “violent” nature. Religion in itself doesn’t make anyone violent; it is only an excuse that is sometimes used for violence that probably would have occurred with or without the consent of Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, Xenu, etc. Some people are violent, regardless of their faith, or lack thereof. Saying that Muslims are violent because of that comic incident is just as bad as saying that black people are violent because of the LA Riots, and just as illogical as saying that Americans are violent because you watched Fight Club.
January 16th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Also, I hate almost any time that someone from my generation uses the word “fascist,” because it is used incorrectly at least 75% of the time. It’s new meaning seems to be “anyone whose ideology I disagree with.” Most politicians AREN’T fascists (despite what some teenagers will tell you), your parents AREN’T fascists (probably), and that teacher that stole your hacky-sack because you were being a dick and playing with it in class ISN’T a fascist. It may make you sound cool to call someone a fascist while you’re in high school, but remember that after that, there will almost always be at least one person around that knows what the word means, so make sure that you do too if you plan to use it. And thus concludes my rant.
January 16th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
[quote comment="38890"]
Matt already commented on the bloody past for Christianity, and I’m sure that I’m not the only one that had the word “Crusades” pop into their mind when that individual brought up Muslim’s “violent” nature. Religion in itself doesn’t make anyone violent; it is only an excuse that is sometimes used for violence that probably would have occurred with or without the consent of Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, Xenu, etc. Some people are violent, regardless of their faith, or lack thereof. Saying that Muslims are violent because of that comic incident is just as bad as saying that black people are violent because of the LA Riots, and just as illogical as saying that Americans are violent because you watched Fight Club.[/quote]
What if i convert to Islam but then decide its not for me and decide to be a Buddist, what is the consequence? Are Salafi and Wahhabi elements of Islam violent? How much popularity have they gained in the Islamic world?
How about the Theo Van Goh incident? or the Salman Rushdie incident? Or that incident with the woman in Saudi Arabia recently who was gang raped by several men and then sent to prison along with 200 lashes? I do not believe that all Muslims are violent, but I believe that Islam has some very uniquely violent and oppressive doctrines. Now feel free to tell me about the crusades, the inquisition, along with quotes from the old testament, im sure somebody will.
January 16th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
[quote comment="38902"] I do not believe that all Muslims are violent, but I believe that Islam has some very uniquely violent and oppressive doctrines. Now feel free to tell me about the crusades, the inquisition, along with quotes from the old testament, im sure somebody will.[/quote]
As a muslim, born and raised in Pakistan surrounded by other muslims I can say with some confidence that the religion itself does not contain violent and oppressive doctrines. I will agree that there are countries in the world that bastardize religion in the most extreme way possible but it is not inherently a violent religion and people worshipping Allah does not make them predisposed to violence. So it is completely out of bounds to say that the religion itself preaches such actions, because it does not. If you actually took the time to read and understand the Quran itself you would find that it is not oppressive in any way. What makes it violent is people who mobilize it to further their own goals and disseminate their interpretation of the texts.
Also, if you convert to Islam and and decide you don’t like it, then you are free to convert to any other religion you would like. You may find some muslims call you a heathen and tell you that you are destined for hell, but thats no different from the crazy lady I saw on the street the other day in front of planned parenthood.
January 16th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
I have a problem with every person that is politically active and uses religion as a basis to justify his position. As soon as you use “God/Allah/Jahweh/Tom Cruise” as reason, you’re making an appeal to authority…which is quite simply bad debating form. If you’re going to do that, you have no right to get your back up when someone calls you on it.
The “Christian” American outrage to 9/11 was pretty funny, I thought. Reminded me much of the murderer who looks down his nose with disgust at a rapist. Of course, this is all much more amusing considering that a leading Republican candidate for President called for the institution of a theocracy the other day…
January 16th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
sotiredithurts,
Keep in mind that many countries view the US as barbaric for its continued use of the death penalty. This may not seem like a particularly huge issue, but there is a large difference between a nation that believes it is alright to take a life and one that doesn’t. In fact, my understanding is that (and forgive me if I’m wrong), America is, far and away, the First World country with the highest homicide rate, and I don’t think religion has anything to do with it. This may be a poor example, because Americans already are stereotyped as a violent people throughout the First World, but that doesn’t make it necessarily true. I think of America as a country that has more violent people, not a country where the people are more violent. The only thing gained by the latter belief is a stereotype.
As for the Crusades et al., the reason people bring them up is because some people believe that Islam is a violent religion, but fail to recognize the extremely violent history of North America’s most widespread religion. I’m not saying that you’re among this group, but for those who are that naive, the comparison is important. There aren’t as many recent incidents that come to mind in the Western world, because religion has lost the influence it once had, and it is now obliged to follow the law, rather than write it. It still has enough influence to have an impact in the field of gay marriage and stem cell research, but is no longer able to stir us to kill one another. As a result, we have a few less witch trials today, but it sure is difficult for us to pretend that our religion is innocent with a history like ours.
Good post xarcadia, which brings up a good point. Just as there is nothing in the Quran that supports violence, there was nothing about the teachings of Jesus that justified the Crusades. Violence finds its way into religion when people attempt to manipulate religion for their own gain. My understanding is that both faiths teach peace and love for others, but both seem to have been used by the wrong people for the establishment of power. I’m not a religious person, which either makes me biased or unbiased (I’m not sure which), but my opinion is: Religion doesn’t make man violent; Man makes religion violent.
January 16th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Xarcadia-again darling you are most correct.. but you know this!
And she is right.
In Islam it is taught that violence is a crime against Allah. That to use violence as a means for revenge is also a crime.. or sin.
In Islam , the pillars of our faith are based on pure peace and compassion. Charity being one.
There are some who will bastardize Islam to better suit their purposes and do everyday.. but thats in every religion. And yes the Crusades, which was the equivilant of 12 or 15 holy wars ( I cant remember the exact number at this moment ) were some of the bloodiest. And those were wars waged in the name of God, but were really about taking back holy lands from each other, those being the Muslims and the Christians.
In a world were there are over 2 billion Muslims you can hardly generalize a entire populace of people and say that the religion itself is violent or contains violence. When in truth all religions that are in the forfront now are here because of the wars that they waged in the name of their God.
As far as opression is concerned. There are some who would say that the values that are important to some are not the same to others.. does this make it opressive? No, it makes them purely unique. Who are we to decide what is opressive to others? Is it cause we live in the western world, were we claim to be all that progessive? Yet we cant live without technology or Starbucks? And the ones who thrive in so called 3rd world countries have been thriving for centuries. But I digress..
There are fauts in all religions. As long as you have people in a position to exploit a person(s) weakness, then you will have some form of opression. Its really that simple. Its not a religion that does this.. but power hungry idiots.
January 16th, 2008 at 7:54 pm
Well worded, hopeforchange.
January 16th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Nothingman,
Everything from Buddism to Christianity, from Democracy to Communism have been used as an excuse for violence, this does not surprise me, human beings have a habit of being violent and domineering, it is human nature. That being said, I am as well aware of the Crusades as I am of fanatics crashing jet planes into skyscrapers, this is not at issue in my mind. My curiosity is more along the lines of doctrine. Now you, as well as xarcadia have stated that Islam and the Quran do not justify violence in any sense, I am no expert, I do not pretend to be, and am alright with being corrected, but my understanding is that the major schools of Islam today and historically have taught that death is the price of apostasy. Another example is Muhammad sweeping across the continent with an army, and conquering in the name of Islam, does not strike me as peaceful.
January 16th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
You are 100% right sotiredithurts, Muhammad sweeping across the continent with an army isn’t peaceful. But you are 100% wrong about the major schools of Islam being taught that death is the price of apostasy. Lets think about it this way. 2 Billion muslims, give or take. The only ones you hear about are the ones chanting hate slogans and waging (the ever popular term these days) “jihad”. The percentage you hear about are a very small portion of the population. But yet you don’t hear about average guy Ahmed walking to the market to get some fruit for his family, or the other multitudes like him. Why? Because it doesn’t make for good copy, and certainly doesn’t make for good news. No one cares about the vast array of muslims that are peaceful because it doesn’t support the sensationalist agenda. Now, I’m not trying to go all conspiracy theory on you, but doesn’t the lack of media on “normal” muslims make my point for me?
And let me take this one step further. Forget the crusades. How about we think of how this continent was colonized. The massacring of an ENTIRE PEOPLE was justified because God made the white man better than the red man. (Not my words - I abhor such categorizations). George Washington himself believed that the Native American people were destined to die out because of their inherent genetic weaknesses, and as such, it was the duty of good God Fearing christians to assist in their extermination. That too doesn’t strike me as peaceful - yet we idolize him as the father of our country. Why? Because he did some great things. So did Muhammad.
And if we are talking violence. Lets talk war. I said in an earlier comment on one of these messages that the US is the only country to have ever used a nuclear weapon ON PEOPLE that were our enemies. We are currently spearheading the occupation of a sovereign nation, and are urging other countries to do something about the “terrorist threat” emerging from Iran sensationalizing for all we are worth. I ask you this. What does that make us?
January 16th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
And in churchs were they teach that Jesus is the saviour of all and those who dont accept him are going to hell.. that the women who have abortions are going to hell… and bombing abortion clinics is just, cause they are *murdering* Gods unborn children.. This is all contrary to what the bible teaches, but they do it dont they? And these are but a small actual segment of Christians.. and it would be foolish of me to assume that these few are what Chrisitanity is all about..so its really a matter of how you choose to view things, really.
I cannot begin to count how many people I have met in my life who have said that Muslims are evil and deserve to be dead.. and yet I have never ever in my entire life ever met a Muslim who has said that of a Christian or even of a Jewish person, ever. I am not saying that there are not those out there, but I have never met one.
As far as education is concerned.. I was born in Iran, went to school in Iran and never in any books or from any teacher was I taught that I was to hate America or to hate any nonMuslims.. ever.
As far as dying for your religion? Well I do believe that many have died for the name of Christ and are considered martyrs when in fact many are murderers. You can count the names over and over again. But it doesnt make all who have fought and died for Christ a murderer , at all. And many have waged war in the name of God.. Joan of Arc was one of them.. and was burned at the stake for being a heretic and was later sainted.
And as far as Muhammed (peace be upon him) is concerned, well. He is no different then Constantine who mandated that everyone who worshipped outside of Christianity would be , if caught, sentenced to death. So therefore you can see that all leaders who take the name of God and believe it to be the rightful God in their mind and heart will fight and kill for said God.. does it make it right? No, but its what men (people) have been doing for thousands of years and will never cease. Faith brings out the most intense feelings in people.. that and politics.
And for the record.. In no way do I support the actions of those of my faith, who kill others in the name of Allah, its sinful and disgusting.. and only furthers the ignorance that others have for one of the most peaceful religions and its people (generally speaking,) that I have ever had the chance to know or witness.
January 17th, 2008 at 2:51 am
Thank You……Matt….
that was very well said….
January 17th, 2008 at 4:36 am
Damn, dude.
I just wish I could be as well written as you are. Your writing is better than 50% of those out there who make an actual living doing it.
Kudos.
January 17th, 2008 at 4:54 am
sotired:
Tone is lost on this forum, so please clarify. Are you inquiring as to if certain doctrines of Islam preach violence?
Or are you challenging that certain doctrines preach it based on your limited knowledge?
I think everyone can state some example of some faith preaching violence through some fanatic.
January 17th, 2008 at 6:10 am
hopeforchange: SO well said
Patrick Pitt: So succinct, yet so on point as always!
January 17th, 2008 at 7:18 am
[quote comment="38985"]sotired:
Tone is lost on this forum, so please clarify. Are you inquiring as to if certain doctrines of Islam preach violence?
Or are you challenging that certain doctrines preach it based on your limited knowledge?
I think everyone can state some example of some faith preaching violence through some fanatic.[/quote]
I admittedly don’t know a whole lot about Islam or its doctrines, certainly not enough to debate about its central tenets. But I imagine that the same holds true for Islam as for almost any faith out there: if a subset of the faith wants to, it can find readings and teachings and interpretations that support its own particular outlook. It’s like how you can make statistics say whatever you want them to say depending on how you spin it.
Look at the nutcases at the Westboro Baptist Church and what they’re advocating in the name of God. Granted, they’re a tiny group– but they sure are everywhere, aren’t they?
January 17th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
[quote comment="38985"]sotired:
Tone is lost on this forum, so please clarify. Are you inquiring as to if certain doctrines of Islam preach violence?
Or are you challenging that certain doctrines preach it based on your limited knowledge?
I think everyone can state some example of some faith preaching violence through some fanatic.[/quote]
I am not a relativist; I believe that there is only one way of looking at religion. That being said, I realize that “everyone can state some example of some faith preaching violence through some fanatic”, this was not my point. My question can be summed up in a saying I once heard, that there are moderate Muslims, but there is no moderate Islam.
Muhammad spread Islam by the sword, so are Muslims intended to do the same? Is any public criticism of Islam viewed as an attack on Islam, and worthy of violent reprisal?
Have you ever heard of Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Here is a Somali woman, born and raised Muslim, who’s views differ very much from those of xarcadia and hopeforchange. She calls Islam the new fascism, which subordinates women, and is incompatible with liberal democracy; her words, not mine. She lives under armed guard for being as vocal as she has been.
Though I think Xarcadia and hopeforchange, replied very well, I can honestly say I don’t know enough about Islam to agree or disagree.
January 17th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
sotired:
With all due respect. Really. You keep bringing actions of others to the scene.. what is important to remember is that a Religion is not violent.. the people who choose to represent it in a violent fashion are.
I honest do not know what more to tell you other then, you can read what you like and believe what you want, but I am a firm believer that you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink.
And I think that when you keep trying to use Muhammed (peace be upon him) as a example of your point, you are not keeping in mind that todays morality cannot be applied to the past.
As for Ayaan, I can respect her point of view.. again, those things that are happening against her are bad, I in no way shape or form agree with them, but those are actions of men who, once again, bastardize Islam to better suit their needs. Those men are not true indications of Islam or the entire Muslim people.
Christianity spread christianity by the sword, does that mean it will always do so? I hope not.. but it happens.
I think that instead of trying to lump a populace into a category, and assume what the sensational media tells you-to further their agenda, that you should perhaps actually go to a place of education a University or a Mosque and really ask a Mullah ( priest ) or a teacher what Islam is really like.. and what the main beliefs of our faith are.. It would better inform you of what Islam is really like as opposed to what the Western world wants everyone to believe..
Only the ingorant fear what they have no desire to learn. And that is where opression and uninformed media play their parts..to prey upon the weakness or lack of wisdom of others suits their overall agenda..
And as to the issue you bring forth. There is no moderate Islam.. you are correct there isnt. There is only way to worship Allah, if you are a Muslim, and I can tell you none of those are with violence. Just as I can say that as a Christian, there is no moderate way, there is only one way to worship Christ-as is dictated by whatever Christian branch of faith you worship. And none of those are with violence either. So the point you bring forth can be debated till the cows come home.. but to really understand and want to learn you have to seek the answers for yourself, not just what the media tells you is the true *vision* of Islam.
I can sum it up in one thought pattern:
( and I am going to assume that Xarcadia thinks as I do in regards to this)
Mankind are by nature a violent and opressive force, does that mean that all of mankind are indicitive of these traits? No. Not everyone who is human are brutes, but there are a great many that are. And it behooves us as human beings to not try to think of each other by religion or ethnicity, but by one simple fact. We are all human. Before I am anything in this world or to anyone. I am a human being first. Maybe thats what it really should be all about. But having seen and lived with so much crap in my life, I choose to still see the overall good in people, not what is easy to imagine.
January 17th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
Hope,
This is an interesting article from Mother Jones that tells one Iranian woman’s story.
She has made peace with her past, and I sincerely wish we all could put our frictions and pain behind us. I wish you peace and quietude……..R.
http://www.motherjones.com/interview/2008/01/fashion-victim-full.html