Its totally true. I’m a Teacher Candidate, and every discussion we have about standardized testing has the same result. Too many kids are failing, yet the standards are already too fucking low.

My ex-girlfriend had two children, and I was completely disappointed by just how little they did in school. When I was in elementary school, we did our work for six hours a day and then came home to spend time with our families and friends. It wasn’t until high school that I really started getting homework.

Contrast that with my ex’s two kids who, despite being in grades one and four, routinely brought home two hours of homework each per night. We obviously did our best to help them, but given that we both had full time jobs, had to do chores, laundry, get groceries, family time, and all the other requirements in the real world, it was nearly impossible for us to put in the time with the kids that their teachers expected.

My sister goes through the same thing. Honestly, it really seemed like kids were doing far less at school than we used to. I was signing permission slips every week for full-day excursions and what-not, which I think are important, but not at the expense of learning the material you’re supposed to each year.

Many children have lost their right to freedom and the right to socialize in North America. Parents are over-whelmed with the duties with both parents working and having to keep an eye on their kids 24-7. I feel the schools have taken on the role of instilling social skills in children, that they can no longer find outside of school. By sticking to the books only in schools we ended up with a society of kid’s trained in specific book smarts with little or no life skills. Kid’s became far less mature, less responsible and far less ambitious.Kid’s today are not free to explore, imagine, create and spend time with peers. I believe when children are prisoners in their own homes so much of the time, homework is good unless of coarse it is not done. I think the real challenge would be to get families back to doing what families should do, giving kids some of their freedoms back and letting teachers educate rather than raise.

ah yes Carlin!
Teachers are always a hot topic with me.
Last year I did a volunteer workshop (coincidently at my alma mater) w/ a city high school where I paired up with a teacher and for 8 weeks two class periods a week I went and taught the students about architecture.
Prior to that there was a two day workshop with the teachers where we did some lesson planning on what were were going to teach the students. The lack of enthusiasm started with the teachers, bitching and griping about every little thing until the last day of the workshop a dispute between the teachers and the architects broke out about how they can’t properly teach the students because of state budget cutbacks and strict curriculum requirements. If they weren’t the highest paid teachers in the entire united states maybe they could afford the books and supplies that they claim they need.
Working with the students wasn’t bad. They were well behaved but were never prepared or encouraged by the teacher who simply was there for the paycheck and benefits. Not a bad job where you get work six hour days, get summers paid off, only work 180 days a year compared to a typical 250 , never have to contribute to a pension but you get one, get 21 sick days a year, have the best health insurance that is paid for until you die, and can retire after 25 years. There is simply no incentive to teach the students and have them pass the minimum state required exams because the teachers will still get their raises and benefits.
If I kept slipping and failing at my job I wouldn’t get a raise I’d get fired. So what the fuck is going on here?
Having said that I was a product of that system and turned out fine, at least I think. I strongly believe that parents have a lot to do with teaching their children as well.

My focus was on the connection between those that control and whether or not it is actually important to those in power whether education improves or not.

Educational standards have dropped, yet record corporate profits are being made. As employment opportunities with benefits disappear, low-wage long hour jobs are created- and what better way to fill those jobs than by simply dumbing-down your workforce?

For the first time in recorded history in the U.S. housing market, Americans own less than 50% of their homes on average. Equity in homes has been dropping for years, and now more than ever the housing crisis continues to wreak havoc on families. Working several jobs is a standard affair, and according to George Bush “uniquely American”. How are families going to monitor, let alone provide directly additional in-home schooling for their children’s educational growth with all that work to be done?

They’re not. And for those high enough up, that’s just the way they like it.

He sums things up so well doesn’t he, what can you say.

Part of the discussion filbertfancy is not necessarily the education of those who ‘built this country’- technically speaking, you would have to gauge their education in the context of the time period compared to today, but I digress.

The important fact is that the United States is a developed country with education in the decline, so much so that it’s extraordinary considering is financial capabilities.

I don’t think that the puppet masters are deliberately dumbing down the population, I think they just plain don’t give a damn. Us North Americans are living in a ‘high cost centre’, we are not worth what we cost–they can go elsewhere and get 2-for-1, so why bother educating or training us? More short-term thinking on their part–the cheap labour replacing us are people too, they will demand more over time, become too expensive, and the cycle continues.

Story of stuff for sure.

Quoting redbaron:

ah yes Carlin!
Teachers are always a hot topic with me.
Last year I did a volunteer workshop (coincidently at my alma mater) w/ a city high school where I paired up with a teacher and for 8 weeks two class periods a week I went and taught the students about architecture.
Prior to that there was a two day workshop with the teachers where we did some lesson planning on what were were going to teach the students. The lack of enthusiasm started with the teachers, bitching and griping about every little thing until the last day of the workshop a dispute between the teachers and the architects broke out about how they can’t properly teach the students because of state budget cutbacks and strict curriculum requirements. If they weren’t the highest paid teachers in the entire united states maybe they could afford the books and supplies that they claim they need.
Working with the students wasn’t bad. They were well behaved but were never prepared or encouraged by the teacher who simply was there for the paycheck and benefits. Not a bad job where you get work six hour days, get summers paid off, only work 180 days a year compared to a typical 250 , never have to contribute to a pension but you get one, get 21 sick days a year, have the best health insurance that is paid for until you die, and can retire after 25 years. There is simply no incentive to teach the students and have them pass the minimum state required exams because the teachers will still get their raises and benefits.
If I kept slipping and failing at my job I wouldn’t get a raise I’d get fired. So what the fuck is going on here?
Having said that I was a product of that system and turned out fine, at least I think. I strongly believe that parents have a lot to do with teaching their children as well.

Having known several teachers personally, I can tell you that none of them work six hour days, nor do they only put in 180 days a year. They work before and after the school bell rings–including at home. They work on the weekends. They work over holiday breaks. They deal with unruly kids, uncooperative parents, and demanding administrators. They face regular funding crises which mean their jobs could disappear when the current school levy doesn’t pass.

The “incentive” to teach students is their desire to teach. Nobody goes into teaching for the money. Sure, there will be teachers who burn out. And there will be teachers who are not as motivated as others. But that’s true of any career field, because it’s true of the human race–there are good and bad cops, good and bad teachers, good and bad architects, good and bad musicians.

I worked as teacher in South Korea and the work ethic over there is phenomenal. It really is no surprise their economy has seen unparalleled growth in recent times, it stems from education and a will to better themselves as each generation progresses. The amount of time they spend in the classroom is incredible, most children put in 8-6pm days in school, and come home to between 3-4 hours of private tutoring, each day.

My fellow Korean teachers were working 8-8pm six or seven days a week and were still behind. The push for education there is serious. It shows, too. Each year record students graduate but these results arent due to exams devalued to enhance grades, its just solid hard work. The system doesnt need to submit to lower standards to save its record, instead the record grows pushed by the very minds it’s there to test.

Wow Carlin’s so SO spot on.

Quoting sotiredithurts:

My understanding is that there is an entirely different ethic surrounding education in other countries and there is a far greater emphasis placed especially on the sciences in those countries(countries in Europe and Asia). Thats why if you ever go visit the applied sciences department at any of the major universities in BC (UBC, SFU) you may notice that the Asian kids far outnumber the white kids. Not saying theres anything wrong with that, but ive often thought that it reflects the difference between the position which education plays in our two cultures.
Another thing, and this may be a little off topic, but ive noticed that you dont see a lot of women in the applied sciences like Engineering, but go look at the English, or Psychology department, and they are there in droves(not that theres anything wrong with english or psych). However, you would think that after all that bitching and complaining over the past century (and rightly so, im not criticizing) for equal rights, that you would see more women stepping up to become, doctors, engineers, and scientists. Yet, on “international womens day” I could not stop reading articles about how women are still payed less than men, and my immediate thought was, no shit! an english degree wont get you as far as an engineering degree.

No kidding! There is a different ethic. According to the rest of the World teachers are there to educate, they are there to help students learn as simple as that. Parents are there to work with the teachers to achieve that high. I was trying to acquire a teaching certificate but was a bit too vocal about the deficiencies in the system (you can guess how my practicum went). At any rate it is impossible to help students achieve their best when a teacher is told that students should not have to take homework home and when parents are pushing their children into sports and volunteering - all of which are noble causes but not everyone can handle it - while students themselves (this is high school) can only think about work and how much money they can make in a week.
Meanwhile governments are letting students go through middle school whether they passed their tests or not because students will be “psychologically traumatized” if they were left behind while their friends went on to the next year. What is a math teacher supposed to do when a student in grade 12 does not have basic math skills?

Quoting sotiredithurts:

Yet, on “international womens day” I could not stop reading articles about how women are still payed less than men, and my immediate thought was, no shit! an english degree wont get you as far as an engineering degree.

Disclaimer: This is not directed at you personally sotiredithurts, but your comment set me off on a rant that really gets me.

You are taking into consideration that even in traditionally male-dominated occupations, women of equal rank frequently still get paid less, with exact qualifications? And that traditionally male-dominated occupations are monetarily valued more than traditionally female dominated occupations?

The amount of time you spend formally educating yourself should not be a determinant of wealth (and yes, I am a formally educated person). Doctors, lawyers, engineers… yes you have to go to school for a long time to do that but there are also a lot of people busting their asses out there without societally valued pieces of paper working to create healthier communities (which is the backbone of any community) that contribute just as much to society as any of the above mentioned jobs. Look at the social services. So much time, effort and emotional investment with little financial aid for those who are in it. only difference is you don’t need such a fancy piece of paper to do it, but you still get overworked, underpaid and burnout.

The price of education? Well, if you wanted to do it, that’s your choice to (unfairly) pay for it. What about the people who work most of their lives in highly undervalued occupations for the good of their community? I bet if you add up the value they lost because their work was not deemed as ‘important’ as other jobs, you would have paid for a masters, or more likely a doctorate degree in lost wages.

Some of the most dedicated people i’ve seen that work day-in and day-out for community health and justice have talked about education. And you know what? A lot of them have the most coveted title of them all that make any of us look like premies: Mom. People who choose follow a different path should not have their societal value based on what little letters follow their name. Unfortunately that is how society works.

International women’s day. I support that because many of the people who tiresly work to keep people healthy and communities safe and vibrant do ‘invisible’ work and are women. It doesn’t come with a physical, thus tangible, ‘thing’ to look at, feel or hold to ooow and aaaw over but is in the background keeping those systems going that make it possible for people with fancier titles to do their work.

Don’t kid yourself into thinking that the glass ceiling has disappeared. Helping roles in society (of which many women still choose to do) should not be rewarded any less than other occupations that require technical knowledge. Dealing with people is extremely difficult, and you either have the knack or you don’t. Where is the societal value in that? Guess it would come with that piece of paper, eh?

The impression that these jobs are not worth more than what they are currently valued, or that they are so unimportant that they should be done on a volunteer basis is not only unfair, but completely insulting.

I just have to say this - in my view, the most undervalued occupation always was and will be is that of a janitor. A grocery clerk comes in somewhat close second.

Why did this discussion turn to university education? - it doesn’t amount to much unless you apply it, work in the real world and try to contribute something to the society, then even an English degree may pay off, if not financially, then at least in emotional gratification (also nothing personal).

AHHH!

Quoting amy:

I personally think making families feed their kids REAL food would be a start, NOT TO lower standardized test passing grades (although that is a whole can of worms on its own) and branching out to recognize all styles of learning. Sound too hippy to actually happen? I think so.

i wish the edit button existed so i would not have so many damn posts!

We practice Capitalism first, Democracy second. That’s the system we’re in. The private sector (those “big evil corporations”) make money, employ people, and through a graduated income tax system, along with the many other tax responsibilities, theoretically fund the public sector (which is our government, who ideally use this money wisely to handle our social services like education, health care and infrastructure). Those are the rules of the game. That’s it. We’re not communists. We’re not socialists. “The Greater Good” is only a moral guideline in our system. It’s not a regulation.

Therefore, if a Government wants more tax revenue to pay for social services and make the constituents happy, it HAS to kiss ass of the corporations. It has to see a risk/benefit of doing business with the people who provide the money they use to appease the voters. The bigger the corporation and tax revenue payoff of making them happy, the bigger the ass kissing. When handled properly, this huge ass kissing procedure makes the owners of the corporation richer and happier, and the puckering up Government official richer and happier. The rich WILL get richer, and everyone else passively operates under the assumption that their community needs are being adequately met.

I am a business owner. I am a corporate “bigwig” (although in my case, I’m a “littlewig” as my business is small). I employ my fellow Canadians and try to help them finance their lifestyles. I do this as well as paying outrageous taxes in many forms both corporately and personally and assume the legal risks of bankrupt customers and possible liability lawsuits.

If I mismanage my Private sector company, I go bankrupt and my employees are unemployed. The “trickle down effect” of my misfortune, whether self-induced by greed or incompetence, negatively affects many people’s lives.

When the Public sector mismanages their responsibilites, well, it just gets corrected with the next budget, which, should it be unfavourable to the general public, will supposedly get corrected in the next election. That’s quite a cycle.

Carlin’s rant is painfully accurate. We corporate people have the right to profit by possibly capitalizing on the ignorance of the general public (see his Credit Card example). Don’t hate the player, hate the game. That’s capitalism in a nutshell. In turn, that same general public will sit back and watch elected officials mismanage their hard earned tax revenue (see the negative education system content all over this forum). That’s Democracy.

I hate this quote more than anything, but alas, “It is what it is”.

I disagree with the mentality that we should have our kids in school for 6-8 hours a day and then have 4-5 hours of tutoring afterwards. What the hell is a childhood for? To tell you the honest truth the actual ‘things’ I learned, the actual ‘facts’ that were taught to me during Elementary, Junior and Highschool were pretty much entirely useless to me once I got the University. They basically told us that everything we had learned was wrong and they were going to re-teach us.

The thing we should focus on in school is teaching kids how to learn, how to love learning, and how to get along with each other. It does NOT take 10 hours of intense study to do that. Leave the intense study for University, let the damn kids have a childhood.

Quoting Kordan:

I disagree with the mentality that we should have our kids in school for 6-8 hours a day and then have 4-5 hours of tutoring afterwards. What the hell is a childhood for? To tell you the honest truth the actual ‘things’ I learned, the actual ‘facts’ that were taught to me during Elementary, Junior and Highschool were pretty much entirely useless to me once I got the University. They basically told us that everything we had learned was wrong and they were going to re-teach us.

The thing we should focus on in school is teaching kids how to learn, how to love learning, and how to get along with each other. It does NOT take 10 hours of intense study to do that. Leave the intense study for University, let the damn kids have a childhood.

To answer the childhood question - childhood happens during summer break when you do not work, but play and do no school work. I went to school in Russia up to grade 9. We had 16 subjects in total, not broken down by the semester but all at once. Everyone left school able to read and find at least some major countries on an unmarked map. You had to take World History, World Art, Geography, Music, and then separately Russian History, Russian Grammar and Literature were separate subjects as well. Mathematics were separated into Algebra and Geometry (I’m forgetting Phys. Ed). You were not allowed to use calculator until High School. When I moved to Canada, I was bored out of my wits with Physics 11 and Math 12, that is having only finished half of grade 9 courses in Russia and barely speaking English. Russian schools cover all of this curriculum in middle school. Most exchange students face the same - they get high 90’s in these classes thereby significantly raising overall average.

As far as being a kid - no-one pushed me into working, and we all had the whole summer (I’m talking June, July and August) off, also you spend 10 and not 12 years at the school. Not many kids from our schools dropped out first of all because their parents would not let that happen. And, I don’t know how many people know this, but grading system was quite different - no percentages, it was at the discretion of your teacher to see how well the work was done, and, if you were a weaker student, the teacher would give you a passing mark even if you failed by other standards if he/she saw that you put in your best effort.

In Canada, it is very noble of public schools to try to integrate all kinds of learning styles in what is basically a jail format (lets admit it that is what a public school is) but for the majority of kids it does not work - they need strict instruction and then some of them will need individual help - but that must rely on cooperation between a teacher and a parent, which is often not there.

Anyway, I could go on, but I think I should stop…

RIght on vika, you mentioned a lot of what’s “wrong” with the system in Canada. I’m from Europe and most of my family lives there, so I know just how much more challenging school can be. I especially agree with you comment about schools being like prisons - I think of it every time I go by one of the many middle or lower class schools in the city, even my old hunting grounds. It’s interesting to look back on the places as an adult and start to unravel just how the system has affected you and your friends.