I disagree with the mentality that we should have our kids in school for 6-8 hours a day and then have 4-5 hours of tutoring afterwards. What the hell is a childhood for? To tell you the honest truth the actual ‘things’ I learned, the actual ‘facts’ that were taught to me during Elementary, Junior and Highschool were pretty much entirely useless to me once I got the University. They basically told us that everything we had learned was wrong and they were going to re-teach us.

The thing we should focus on in school is teaching kids how to learn, how to love learning, and how to get along with each other. It does NOT take 10 hours of intense study to do that. Leave the intense study for University, let the damn kids have a childhood.

To answer the childhood question - childhood happens during summer break when you do not work, but play and do no school work. I went to school in Russia up to grade 9. We had 16 subjects in total, not broken down by the semester but all at once. Everyone left school able to read and find at least some major countries on an unmarked map. You had to take World History, World Art, Geography, Music, and then separately Russian History, Russian Grammar and Literature were separate subjects as well. Mathematics were separated into Algebra and Geometry (I’m forgetting Phys. Ed). You were not allowed to use calculator until High School. When I moved to Canada, I was bored out of my wits with Physics 11 and Math 12, that is having only finished half of grade 9 courses in Russia and barely speaking English. Russian schools cover all of this curriculum in middle school. Most exchange students face the same - they get high 90’s in these classes thereby significantly raising overall average.

As far as being a kid - no-one pushed me into working, and we all had the whole summer (I’m talking June, July and August) off, also you spend 10 and not 12 years at the school. Not many kids from our schools dropped out first of all because their parents would not let that happen. And, I don’t know how many people know this, but grading system was quite different - no percentages, it was at the discretion of your teacher to see how well the work was done, and, if you were a weaker student, the teacher would give you a passing mark even if you failed by other standards if he/she saw that you put in your best effort.

In Canada, it is very noble of public schools to try to integrate all kinds of learning styles in what is basically a jail format (lets admit it that is what a public school is) but for the majority of kids it does not work - they need strict instruction and then some of them will need individual help - but that must rely on cooperation between a teacher and a parent, which is often not there.

Anyway, I could go on, but I think I should stop…

The thing we should focus on in school is teaching kids how to learn, how to love learning, and how to get along with each other. It does NOT take 10 hours of intense study to do that. Leave the intense study for University, let the damn kids have a childhood.

rich cocksucker that cares

me too

2 down…one to go
wish me luck

Therefore, if a Government wants more tax revenue to pay for social services and make the constituents happy, it HAS to kiss ass of the corporations. It has to see a risk/benefit of doing business with the people who provide the money they use to appease the voters. The bigger the corporation and tax revenue payoff of making them happy, the bigger the ass kissing. When handled properly, this huge ass kissing procedure makes the owners of the corporation richer and happier, and the puckering up Government official richer and happier. The rich WILL get richer, and everyone else passively operates under the assumption that their community needs are being adequately met.

I am a business owner. I am a corporate “bigwig” (although in my case, I’m a “littlewig” as my business is small). I employ my fellow Canadians and try to help them finance their lifestyles. I do this as well as paying outrageous taxes in many forms both corporately and personally and assume the legal risks of bankrupt customers and possible liability lawsuits.

If I mismanage my Private sector company, I go bankrupt and my employees are unemployed. The “trickle down effect” of my misfortune, whether self-induced by greed or incompetence, negatively affects many people’s lives.

When the Public sector mismanages their responsibilites, well, it just gets corrected with the next budget, which, should it be unfavourable to the general public, will supposedly get corrected in the next election. That’s quite a cycle.

Carlin’s rant is painfully accurate. We corporate people have the right to profit by possibly capitalizing on the ignorance of the general public (see his Credit Card example). Don’t hate the player, hate the game. That’s capitalism in a nutshell. In turn, that same general public will sit back and watch elected officials mismanage their hard earned tax revenue (see the negative education system content all over this forum). That’s Democracy.

I hate this quote more than anything, but alas, “It is what it is”.

and Check out America Freedom to Fascism.

Quoting amy:

I personally think making families feed their kids REAL food would be a start, NOT TO lower standardized test passing grades (although that is a whole can of worms on its own) and branching out to recognize all styles of learning. Sound too hippy to actually happen? I think so.

i wish the edit button existed so i would not have so many damn posts!

I just have to say this - in my view, the most undervalued occupation always was and will be is that of a janitor. A grocery clerk comes in somewhat close second.

Why did this discussion turn to university education? - it doesn’t amount to much unless you apply it, work in the real world and try to contribute something to the society, then even an English degree may pay off, if not financially, then at least in emotional gratification (also nothing personal).

i 100% agree with you. i think garbage man is there too. I do have more to say, but have realized it has gone way off topic, but to let you know the discussion for me turned to uni. came about regarding the whole hard vs social science comment (something thats been a bit of a thorn in my side).

To quickly add though, saying that emotional gratification should cut the reality cheese doesn’t work. I am 100% gratified by my job, and can’t imagine anything else that allows me to make positive change on both household/grassroots levels to local government. I am not angry at ‘the system’ for not paying me nearly as much as i am worth as it is my choice to work for free, pay cuts and take on eons more responsibility. but it would be nice if other people saw the true value of others’ work based on their impact on society, and not what some old system defined in a more patriarchal time.

and back to discussing the old man’s tirade on the current education system…

I think it is cyclic. How are you to encourage children to pay more attention, and to train teachers to be more effective when the system they are a part of is already degrading? I believe it is possible, but you are starting on an uphill slope. I personally think making families feed their kids REAL food would be a start, lower standardized test passing grades (although that is a whole can of worms on its own) and branching out to recognize all styles of learning. Sound too hippy to actually happen? I think so.

Why did this discussion turn to university education? - it doesn’t amount to much unless you apply it, work in the real world and try to contribute something to the society, then even an English degree may pay off, if not financially, then at least in emotional gratification (also nothing personal).

Helping roles in society (of which many women still choose to do) should not be rewarded any less than other occupations that require technical knowledge.

I should not say technical knowledge because much of what these so automatically undervalued occupations demand IS technical knowledge, and much like those fancier letter behind ones name, the ability to deal with on-the-spot changes to any plan.

What my comment should have plainly said is that ‘helping roles in society (oh which many women still choose to do) should not be rewarded any less than other occupations.”

Yet, on “international womens day” I could not stop reading articles about how women are still payed less than men, and my immediate thought was, no shit! an english degree wont get you as far as an engineering degree.

Disclaimer: This is not directed at you personally sotiredithurts, but your comment set me off on a rant that really gets me.

You are taking into consideration that even in traditionally male-dominated occupations, women of equal rank frequently still get paid less, with exact qualifications? And that traditionally male-dominated occupations are monetarily valued more than traditionally female dominated occupations?

The amount of time you spend formally educating yourself should not be a determinant of wealth (and yes, I am a formally educated person). Doctors, lawyers, engineers… yes you have to go to school for a long time to do that but there are also a lot of people busting their asses out there without societally valued pieces of paper working to create healthier communities (which is the backbone of any community) that contribute just as much to society as any of the above mentioned jobs. Look at the social services. So much time, effort and emotional investment with little financial aid for those who are in it. only difference is you don’t need such a fancy piece of paper to do it, but you still get overworked, underpaid and burnout.

The price of education? Well, if you wanted to do it, that’s your choice to (unfairly) pay for it. What about the people who work most of their lives in highly undervalued occupations for the good of their community? I bet if you add up the value they lost because their work was not deemed as ‘important’ as other jobs, you would have paid for a masters, or more likely a doctorate degree in lost wages.

Some of the most dedicated people i’ve seen that work day-in and day-out for community health and justice have talked about education. And you know what? A lot of them have the most coveted title of them all that make any of us look like premies: Mom. People who choose follow a different path should not have their societal value based on what little letters follow their name. Unfortunately that is how society works.

International women’s day. I support that because many of the people who tiresly work to keep people healthy and communities safe and vibrant do ‘invisible’ work and are women. It doesn’t come with a physical, thus tangible, ‘thing’ to look at, feel or hold to ooow and aaaw over but is in the background keeping those systems going that make it possible for people with fancier titles to do their work.

Don’t kid yourself into thinking that the glass ceiling has disappeared. Helping roles in society (of which many women still choose to do) should not be rewarded any less than other occupations that require technical knowledge. Dealing with people is extremely difficult, and you either have the knack or you don’t. Where is the societal value in that? Guess it would come with that piece of paper, eh?

The impression that these jobs are not worth more than what they are currently valued, or that they are so unimportant that they should be done on a volunteer basis is not only unfair, but completely insulting.

Teachers are always a hot topic with me.

Me too. But not quite in the same sense ;)

Carry on…

My understanding is that there is an entirely different ethic surrounding education in other countries and there is a far greater emphasis placed especially on the sciences in those countries(countries in Europe and Asia). Thats why if you ever go visit the applied sciences department at any of the major universities in BC (UBC, SFU) you may notice that the Asian kids far outnumber the white kids. Not saying theres anything wrong with that, but ive often thought that it reflects the difference between the position which education plays in our two cultures.
Another thing, and this may be a little off topic, but ive noticed that you dont see a lot of women in the applied sciences like Engineering, but go look at the English, or Psychology department, and they are there in droves(not that theres anything wrong with english or psych). However, you would think that after all that bitching and complaining over the past century (and rightly so, im not criticizing) for equal rights, that you would see more women stepping up to become, doctors, engineers, and scientists. Yet, on “international womens day” I could not stop reading articles about how women are still payed less than men, and my immediate thought was, no shit! an english degree wont get you as far as an engineering degree.

No kidding! There is a different ethic. According to the rest of the World teachers are there to educate, they are there to help students learn as simple as that. Parents are there to work with the teachers to achieve that high. I was trying to acquire a teaching certificate but was a bit too vocal about the deficiencies in the system (you can guess how my practicum went). At any rate it is impossible to help students achieve their best when a teacher is told that students should not have to take homework home and when parents are pushing their children into sports and volunteering - all of which are noble causes but not everyone can handle it - while students themselves (this is high school) can only think about work and how much money they can make in a week.
Meanwhile governments are letting students go through middle school whether they passed their tests or not because students will be “psychologically traumatized” if they were left behind while their friends went on to the next year. What is a math teacher supposed to do when a student in grade 12 does not have basic math skills?

I worked as teacher

Not the kids in my class, they’re fucked.

My fellow Korean teachers were working 8-8pm six or seven days a week and were still behind. The push for education there is serious. It shows, too. Each year record students graduate but these results arent due to exams devalued to enhance grades, its just solid hard work. The system doesnt need to submit to lower standards to save its record, instead the record grows pushed by the very minds it’s there to test.

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