Speechless
June 10, 2008, Matthew Good When our boys from the 3rd Infantry Division hit Juno Beach the morning of June 6th, 1944, the casualty rate within the first hour was 50%. Stretched between Saint-Aubin-sur-Mer and Courseulles-sur-Mer, our objective, like that on every other beach, was to clear a path so that armour could be landed and push inland. So the boys of the 3rd Infantry Division did their job. They did it so effectively, in fact, that they pushed further inland than any other allied force that landed that day, despite the fact that they suffered casualty rates equal to those suffered by the Americans at Omaha Beach.
While they did not secure their objective, they came closer to securing it than any other allied force against the most heavily defended section of all of the D-Day landing zones. The seawall at Juno was three times as high as that at Omaha Beach, the waters were mined, and aerial and naval bombardments preceding the landing failed to cause any significant damage to German defensive positions.
My connection to the sacrifices made that day is very strong. Being a lifetime student of history, especially one of 20th Century history, the events of that day by all involved should never be forgotten. When the Juno Centre in Courseulles-sur-Mer was built I donated in the same funding level group as Global Television did. Numerous members of my family served in the Canadian Armed Forces during the Second World War, so for me it was something that I felt needed to be done on behalf of my entire family.
While this entry might seem random to most of you, there is a reason for it, one prompted by an email that I received today…
“Few things I have ever experienced have appalled me to the point of nearly vomiting, but what I am about to tell you makes my stomach churn and it brings up the bile from the back of my neck.
Recently, my girlfriend went to Europe with a group from her small art school outside Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Over the course of their trip they traveled to Normandy, France. While going through her photos from Normandy, I happened upon pictures of a beach party in full swing with all her friends and fellow travelers drinking beer, kicking around soccer balls, and all the proper elements of a beach party. In one of the photos I noticed a monument in the background and, being a student of history, I recognized it as the Canadian memorial at Juno beach. As it turns out, my girlfriend and her compatriots were having a party on the very spot where Canadians attacked the most heavily fortified positions on D-day. The photos of them drinking beer and placing objects in the surf to artfully take photographs of make me seriously ill. I asked my girlfriend about it and apparently she raised a degree of protest to going down to the beach due the fact that it’d be akin to desecrating a sacred place, but one of her classmates said “Jesus, it’s just a fucking beach” and her minority opinion was overruled and they went anyways. It was also justified because, despite the presence of numerous memorials and signs stating what happened there, it was not the American landing site so it did not really matter. I am ashamed to call myself an American sometimes due to jack asses such as the people my girl goes to art school with. One would think artists are supposed to be intelligent and educated, but all I’ve experienced from these particular “artists” thus far is ignorance and selfishness. It makes me lose faith a little more in the youth of America today to know that there is an entire generation of youth who basically have grown up with a sense of entitlement and do not care about those around them. These particular kids are more concerned with who is fucking who, and who likes who, even at the ages of 19-22, than with more relevant and pertinent political matters. Due to the proliferation of people such as these, I feel there is little hope for America left. The intelligent person seems to be a dying breed in this country and before long they’ll be almost entirely extinct. I’ve enclosed a few of the photos so you might see for yourself.”
To this I have nothing to say. I’m simply speechless.
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Just a fucking beach.
That’s crazy. Some people just don’t get it. When I was in New York a few years ago I visited ground zero, and tons of tourists were busy snapping photos of their friends with thumbs-up signs or hang-loose signs right in front of where the buildings used to be. Most of them didn’t even glance at the memorial containing the 3000 names of people who died on that very spot.
Earlier this year, there were reports of Vimy Ridge Memorial being used as a meeting place for conjugal visits and other deviant acts.
It’s disgusting, but par for the course in this self-absorbed society we live in.
It’s sad to say, but unfortunately the author of that email is in fact, correct. Intelligence is a dying breed.
Everything is a fucking trend. Being an artist, whether you are or are not, is trendy. Having your face splattered all over free porn sites, is trendy. The past is trendy, but having any respect or past knowledge for it, is NOT trendy. Tila Tequila is so fucking trendy that I’ve seen her on the cover of three magazine issues for June because apparently being a bisexual is trendy now. Last time I checked being gay and bisexual had nothing to do with popularity points. Even being a vegan is trendy now. Nothing of importance is worth remembering other than what will make someone popular or original. All our society has taught us to care about is being important, no matter what values or heritage we have to disgrace on our journey to self importance.
Go Team North America!!
I want to reach through my screen, knock the bottle out of that girl’s mouth, and say “what the hell is wrong with you?”
[quote comment="55009"]Just a fucking beach.[/quote]
Indeed.
Our thoughts are ours, their ends none of our own:
Americans have also demonstrated an appalling insensitivity to sacred battlefield sites inside their own borders.
Two examples:
1. The was a plan to build a Disney Theme Park adjacent to the Manassas Civil War battlefield in Virginia
http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/mana/adhi0.htm
2. There was also a plan to build a huge casino next to Gettysburg in Pennsylvania
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-04-13-gettysburg_x.htm
[quote comment="55016"]I want to reach through my screen, knock the bottle out of that girl’s mouth, and say “what the hell is wrong with you?”[/quote]
Whaddya mean? There soooo cool…
They could have had even more fun over at Vimy Ridge.
That’s like saying” Hey, let’s go throw a party on the WTC ruins!”
I mean, it’s just a fucking crater, right?
Vimy ridge is just a fucking hill too.
I guess they wouldn’t mind if I went and pissed on their relative’s graves and when confronted about it replied that it’s “just a fucking field”.
They are free to party on that beach because of what happened there!
A little respect is simply not the american way these day’s.
had the group been Canadian, and on Omaha beach, the proper respect would (I AM SURE) been accorded!
Having travelled extensively through France and visited many of the war graves and monuments there this kind of behaviour saddens me. OK, I know it is a monument to the First World War but maybe someone should drag those girls sober to the Ossuary at Douaumont, make them kneel and take a long hard look at the endless sea of skulls and limb bones that were gathered when the fighting finished. Very sad.
I’m speechless as well. I, too, have my name on a brick at the Juno Centre. It was just something I strongly believed in honouring and supporting when it was being built. All my feelings about this incident were perfectly expressed in the email. I can only sit here sadly shaking my head now.
This might sound harsh but, America is going to hell in a hand basket if its future lies in the hands of such kids. Thanks to the likes of “Dubya”, if it isn’t American, then it isn’t important. That’s the attitude they seem to be illustrating whether they realize it or not.
[quote comment="55012"]That’s crazy.
Some people just don’t get it. When I was in New York a few years ago I visited ground zero, and tons of tourists were busy snapping photos of their friends with thumbs-up signs or hang-loose signs right in front of where the buildings used to be.
Most of them didn’t even glance at the memorial containing the 3000 names of people who died on that very spot.[/quote]
That’s pretty gross.
I don’t know if it was the fact that they were American or not.
I’m prepared to make a blanket statement that majority of kids and young adults have lost touch with the past in comparison to generations past…though I doubt I’m the first to say that.
Oh and wear sunscreen.
my grandad was part of that invasion and went to Normandy as one of the honourees for the opening. but jesus, it’s just a fucking beach, you know.
I think this generation has lost touch with the past and the generations who sacrificed so much so we can live the lives we do.
Whilst I’m not American or Canadian (I’m English) I still appreciate the sacrifice and bravery displayed by the forces of both countries in World War 2.
My Grandad is a World War 2 Veteran (he was in Singapore/Malaysia) and from a very early age he would sit and tell me stories about his experiences or of others he had known.
I think this exposure at such an early age is what instilled in me a great respect for the sacrifices made in that conflict.
It saddens me to look around at todays youth culture and see what constitutes a role model or a “hero”. To me someone like Robert G Cole or any number of other men who carried out amazing feats of bravery and heroism are worthy role models to have.
I just wish there were more people around (like my Grandad I guess) who are able to impress the importance of places like Juno Beach and what they really MEAN.
Lately it just seems like this world is drowning in an ocean of ignorance.
hit a legion on Nov 11 and buy an old codger a drink. some of the stories will bring a tear to your eye.
[quote comment="55077"]hit a legion on Nov 11 and buy an old codger a drink. some of the stories will bring a tear to your eye.[/quote]
I would have loved to do this, however my local legion hall was condemned by the city a couple years ago. They were forced to sell the building so that a casino could be built. They have been unable to find a replacement and so there is no legion here. After all, who cares about our veterans when we can have a casino? -_-
[quote comment="55024"]Americans have also demonstrated an appalling insensitivity to sacred battlefield sites inside their own borders.
Two examples:
1. The was a plan to build a Disney Theme Park adjacent to the Manassas Civil War battlefield in Virginia
http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/mana/adhi0.htm
2. There was also a plan to build a huge casino next to Gettysburg in Pennsylvania
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-04-13-gettysburg_x.htm/quote
Please………….. don’t lump all Americans. I was totally appalled about the proposed casino near Gettysburg, as well as the majority of people who live there and in the surrounding communites. I live about 50 minutes from Gettysburg and have been there often biking the roads along the battlefields. What an insult to the memory of the soldiers.
My step Dad, who is an American and who spent a few years of his youth at VMI (class of ‘58) and the next 9 years in the U.S. Army has been spending his retirement as a volunteer acquiring pieces for exhibits at the
Soldiers and Sailors Museum in Pittsburgh Penn. Pop as he’s affectionately known, was lucky enough to be selected to go on a trip with the 101st Airborne, 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, Easy Company, while they retraced their steps from trainining in Georgia to their final destination at the end of WW2 - Hitler’s Eagles Nest. You might know these guys - they’re story was the basis behind the Spielberg/Hanks production “Band Of Brothers”.
Anyway, when they were visiting the beaches in Normandy, my Mom, a Canadian, was along for the “ride”. When the boys (many of them are now in their ’80’s of course and some could not make the trip at all - Dick Winters among them) found out my Mom was Canadian, not only did they insist on altering their pretty tight schedule and making time for a visit to Juno Beach, but allowed her some time there and at the memorial alone. Before they left, as a sign of respect, all of them to a man, got out of the tour bus (remember these guys don’t get around like young paratroopers anymore - many were travelling with assisants or younger family members to help them around) and removed their hats and saluted the Canadian boys at the memorial.
I think the fact that these kids are oblivious to all of this is a tragedy. A couple hours in a veterans hospital and some history lessons would cure them quickly.
Ignorant, clueless and classless. It reminds me of the story of the teens who were caught urinating on the National War Memorial in Ottawa on Canada Day a couple of years back. Respect and reverence is completely lacking in some people, it seems.
(@ Brian: that’s a beautiful story. Tempers this one, at least a bit.)
[quote comment="55024"]Americans have also demonstrated an appalling insensitivity to sacred battlefield sites inside their own borders.
Two examples:
1. The was a plan to build a Disney Theme Park adjacent to the Manassas Civil War battlefield in Virginia quote]
NO WAY!!! Very sad…
Matt, I would like to agree, but I just don’t.
Imagine the sheer number of casualties at battles such as Stalingrad, Leningrad or the Somme/Passchendale (not all that far from Normandy itself). I believe it is necessary to remember, but the land itself is not ’sacred’ in any way. The people of those poor cities affected must look to the future rather than dwell on the past. Volgograd and Saint Petersburg (for instance, since these are the guys that were really doing it tough, as much as Americans usually like to think they won the war for Europe) will not any time soon forget the beyond appalling casualties taken by the Soviet army and people during the second world war. Neither will the people of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, London, Dresden or most other cities and battlegrounds of history. Not by any stretch of the imagination. But neither should it be necessary to turn _every_ horrible battlefield into a monument to our own stupidity (however necessary that should be). Monuments have their place, certainly, but these people must get on with their lives and stop being bitter and sad!
If we had a monument to every terrible and senseless war humankind has fought over the years, well, France wouldn’t have beaches in the west. Or much in the way of a countryside in the east of the country. And so on.
I’m not suggesting monuments and respect for the fallen are out of place, only that extreme reverence for the fallen is excessive. I’m not surprised my generation has taken it upon themselves to disregard important mistakes of the past. Not in the least.
When I hosted a German exchange student, nearly the only thing people were capable of bringing up was the war. Imagine being consistently bagged and blamed for things your great-grandparents did. Germany now is a terrific country, but nobody ever seems to appreciate that ahead of their violent past (horrible as that is). She actually got angry one time and brought that up. It was always at the back of my mind every time I heard it, but when she snapped it gave me much perspective indeed.
I recognize and empathize with this person’s feelings. I personally would have said something.
But, that being said, being an asshole is not an exclusive American export. For every American that you encounter who acts like that, I can guarantee you there are at least a couple more who would be appalled. Just because the idiots rule the media and the spoiled kids that get to travel around the world on their parents dime have no sense of dignity, only entitlement, does not mean that we are all that way.
I personally know many of my friends would share in my outrage. My family would as well. That’s at least 35 people in just a 5 mile radius that I personally know well enough to speak for. Please don’t let the actions of the few tarnish your opinion of the many. Thats the same mentality that drives people like George W. Bush to invade countries full of people who are just trying to live because of a couple assholes.
If I may make a suggestion, next time you encounter someone like that, reach out to them instead of being angry. Explain why you feel the way you do, and suggest somewhere else to go. Hopefully it works. It may not, but at least then you haven’t stooped to their lack of empathy and understanding for your fellow human being, be they alive or dead.
[quote comment="55140"]Matt, I would like to agree, but I just don’t.
Imagine the sheer number of casualties at battles such as Stalingrad, Leningrad or the Somme/Passchendale (not all that far from Normandy itself). I believe it is necessary to remember, but the land itself is not ’sacred’ in any way. The people of those poor cities affected must look to the future rather than dwell on the past. Volgograd and Saint Petersburg (for instance, since these are the guys that were really doing it tough, as much as Americans usually like to think they won the war for Europe) will not any time soon forget the beyond appalling casualties taken by the Soviet army and people during the second world war. Neither will the people of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, London, Dresden or most other cities and battlegrounds of history. Not by any stretch of the imagination. But neither should it be necessary to turn _every_ horrible battlefield into a monument to our own stupidity (however necessary that should be). Monuments have their place, certainly, but these people must get on with their lives and stop being bitter and sad!
If we had a monument to every terrible and senseless war humankind has fought over the years, well, France wouldn’t have beaches in the west. Or much in the way of a countryside in the east of the country. And so on.
I’m not suggesting monuments and respect for the fallen are out of place, only that extreme reverence for the fallen is excessive. I’m not surprised my generation has taken it upon themselves to disregard important mistakes of the past. Not in the least.
When I hosted a German exchange student, nearly the only thing people were capable of bringing up was the war. Imagine being consistently bagged and blamed for things your great-grandparents did. Germany now is a terrific country, but nobody ever seems to appreciate that ahead of their violent past (horrible as that is). She actually got angry one time and brought that up. It was always at the back of my mind every time I heard it, but when she snapped it gave me much perspective indeed.[/quote]
Seriousbusiness, thank you so much for that.
First of all, I pay high respect to Matt’s position on the issue keeping in mind the active involvement of large parts of his family in WWII.
I also want to point out that my own position on it has nothing to do with me being german, not the slightest bit. I am a student of history and politics myself and think of me as a would-be scientist, someone who does seek for truth and not claim to already have it.
I completely agree with the point in your statement mentioning the multitude of victims this horrible war cost all over the world. For me it is very difficult to share tendencies to overly celebrate the ‘heroism’ of military acts of any kind during WWII as it was military actions in the first that were responsible for most of the casualties among innocent civilians (take all the incidents you mentioned above) as it is always the case throughout wars. I also want to make clear that I do not suggest Matt doing this in any way knowing about his position on violence and wars in general.
I am simply no friend of balancing casualties as this is something I consider sort of inappropriate. I am totally aware of the sacrifice numerous soldiers have made in world war II - not only the canadians, but also the americans, the russians and even some few germans. I say that in memory of my own grandfathers story who - being an active member of the resistance - chose getting pressed into the military at the east front over becoming a member of NSDAP as he rather wanted to get shot by some russian than sing the nazis song. He was refered to the paratroopers and brought down somewhere over sibiria where he almost froze to death. After being found he spent years in a russian gulag and he was still a convinced antifascist when he finally returned in 1947. He didn’t blame his tormentors for nothing as he knew about the horror the nazis had inflicted on the russians.
I mean there are areas in some 3rd world countries where every square-meter resembles a huge mass-grave. But life goes on there and noone in safe and sound Europe or Canada even notices that hotels or amusement parks are built up on these troubled grounds. We even spend our holidays there. Such is life, such is man. That doesn’t mean I silently accept such patterns of ignorance or approve them. I simply refuse to tell other such examples of ignorance towards the dignity of victims apart from the case mentioned in the article.
Don’t get me wrong - there HAS to be a healthy policy of not forgetting about the horrors of this war and the sacrafices that had to be made to end it. But in my mind that should be done in the most decent and general way, not by putting selected individuals or parties on a pedestral and declare whole regions holy places. To see that through consequently would mean there was barely a place left for simple living in Europe.
Look, there are cultures in this world in which celebrating and being joyful nearby the death is considered a completely odd behaviour based on ancient traditions. We should keep a sense of proportion here - it’s a bunch of young people. And if they did something wrong, then it’s not primarly their fault but that of a society that failed to teach its youngsters about things like descretion and respect.
P.S.: I myself once used to be such a german exchange student in the US. And I can totally second your experiences regarding the inescapable war-issue.
GOD that makes me pissed!! Right the F… O.. !! Something extremely sad about that…
Would think twice about my Number 9 boot right up there asses, with blunt trauma force!!
I don’t think veterans and the families of the fallen would have a problem with people enjoying the beach, I think it’s the blatant disrespect and disregard shown for the very reason they are able to that’s disgusting. We should move on, but we should never forget.
Seriousbusiness/Tuuli22 - Ever hike through Normandy or Nijamagen with a Canadian flag on your back pack. Try it.
And SB who are you to judge what is “extreme reverence” or not?
I would like to say that I am the author of the email to Matt. I have read what some have said about the actions of the kids in the photos and I understand giving people the benefit of the doubt, but in my experiences, I’ve exhausted any benefit of the doubt that could have been extended. To me, an artist is someone who posseses a certain level of intelligence and demonstrates a knowledge of current affairs. Whilst discussing the validity of art with people, the point is always made that art has historically been a reaction to conditions in society or political events that have taken place, making it a commentary on the era in which it was created. Whenever I speak with the people who went on the trip with my girlfriend or most everyone else who she goes to school with, these things just do not matter to them. Her roommate actually told me once when i was trying to talk about the upcoming election and the candidates with her that she didn’t really care because it didn’t really affect her too much. This attitude is pretty much the standard at her school, and I have found myself, by virtue of working in schools the past two years, it’s pretty much the standard attitude among the youth of America today. While it is true that there are some Americans who would be appalled by the events described in my email, the ratio is very very low compared to those who don’t. The more I think about it, the less appalled by it I am. Not because it becomes justified in my mind, but because I know that these kids, as well as the majority of Americans, only care about themselves and are totally oblivious to historical events and politics because these things just don’t matter to them. The social constructs of American society do not work to instill a sense of these matters in youth. Television bombards them with images of how you’re supposed to look and act, as well as other forms of media. Knowledge is not valued by the youth of America today, nor is there a respect for anything that does not remotely concern the individual. This is demonstrative of more than just a few ignorant kids, it’s representative of the system and society that made them that way. People blame Bush for America’s foreign policy, but the average american is just as much to blame, not for formulating and executing it but for not speaking out against it because most people just don’t care enough to know what is really going on. That being said, it should come as no surprise to me that this happened. I kind of half jokingly said before her trip that someone would probably say at normandy “why is there a cemetary here?” I didn’t know that what would actually happen would be much worse and make me lose faith even more in the future of my country.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep,
There is a marked difference between an entire city and a stretch of beach. Not all of that beach is connected to the area of the Centre.
That said, I’ll make sure to bring some pals with me the next time I’m in Hawaii and we visit the Arizona memorial. Maybe we can play street hockey on it or something.
They don’t make major motion pictures of what my countrymen did in World War Two.
I am quite aware of the status of conflict areas throughout the world. In this instance we’re talking about the largest invasion force ever assembled in human history to set a continent free. Call me nuts, but I think that deserves a little respect. And don’t for a second think the children of Volgograd don’t, to this very day, know what happened there in 1943.
[quote comment="55170"]Seriousbusiness/Tuuli22 - Ever hike through Normandy or Nijamagen with a Canadian flag on your back pack. Try it.
[/quote]
Hi Patrick, what do you mean would happen in such a case? I travelled through the whole of France in 2004 for several weeks. Even as a german (you might know about the difficult relationship between both nations due to their troubled history) and by not hiding that fact I had no problems there with people. We met lots of nice people there ;)
Actually, what I’m getting at is that there are those there, generations removed, who hold a great deal of reverence for Canadians. The reason for this, is the part that Canadian soldiers played in the liberation of those areas from WW2.
To them, there is hallowed ground where those invasions occurred. I’ve done a couple battlefield tours through Dieppe, Cannes and then north in Nyamegan and citizens literally came out and wanted to shake my hand.
Now obviously I didn’t participate in any of those campaigns. But if the people of that region, generations removed, retain that sort of respect to generations removed of those that fought in those battles, do visitors of said region owe it a similar measure of respect?
And quite frankly you can quote and cite numerous battles and areas of the world where this same standard doesn’t apply. That’s fine, but unless you lobby to change that I don’t think you’re in a position to criticize those that hold a particular region and piece of land in such high regard. One doesn’t have to feel the need to pay similar homage, but it takes little effort to let those that respect it to continue to do so.
Ergo, if you can’t move the party on down, at least save comments like “It’s just a fucking beach” out of earshot of those to whom the land holds reverence.
That is an insult to those who fought there. Was the war pointless, as most wars are, likely so. It doesn’t make the sacrifices unimportant.
“I’m not surprised my generation has taken it upon themselves to disregard important mistakes of the past. Not in the least.”
I don’t know “Seriousbusiness” - but if I were to judge this individual on this comment alone my voice would tremble, my hands would shake, and I would have to resist the urge of calling them out as an insolent brat.
[quote comment="55177"]I am quite aware of the status of conflict areas throughout the world. In this instance we’re talking about the largest invasion force ever assembled in human history to set a continent free.[/quote]
I think one could spend years just over discussing the above statement, to investigate on the historical truthfulness of it and so on. This is not considered to be cynic but actually an interesting idea to me.
Based on what I have read about US-american politics of the early 20th century I have to doubt at least ’setting a continent free’ to have been the primary (!) intention of the invasion.
If it had been, it would be in fact the first and only time in human history a people would have gone to or entered a war for solely altruistic reasons.
[quote comment="55177"]Call me nuts, but I think that deserves a little respect. And don’t for a second think the children of Volgograd don’t, to this very day, know what happened there in 1943.
[/quote]
To me it is in general a tasteless gesture to step over the dignity of those who gave their lives for the benefit of others, irrespective of actual intentions or national aspects. I think, no I know, it is for you too.
I just couldn’t help but get the impression that there was too much an emotional approach to the issue in the article. I see your point, these kids having been disrespectful and brainless. But isn’t it that what makes them be kids?
I personally consider grown up tourists strolling up Khao Lak beach stepping over smashed deck chairs and other such debris, complaining about the swimming pool not to have reopened yet while the air is filled with the scent of decay a far more legitim reason to question the common sense of people than some stupid kids having a drink on a historic place.
I’d love to ask the kids themselves about their views on that very night as usually I am very careful about commenting on hearsay.
With all due respect, to desecrate a memorial or a monument that has been erected to honor soldiers who sacrificed so much for the freedom we enjoy is despicable but a beach is a beach. If we were to declare that any land on which a battle of any significance was fought is sacred, we wouldn’t be able to move. As an example, the Niagara Falls area is riddled with battle fields on which British, French, American and Aboriginal people fought each other for control of the continent. Does this mean that tourist should no longer go there? Having said that, if I were in that situation and if I knew that there was even one person that felt it was disrespectful, I would not have done it despite my feelings. I think we need to think about the fact that those people are free to “party” on the beach. I think that’s pretty symbolic of what was achieved at Juno in the first place.
re your first point:Critically speaking, this was the largest multinational amphibious assault forces ever assembled. Yes Op OVERLORD has this title.
What facts do you have to dispute that? I and many historians would love to hear.
I was a kid, brainless and stupid, and I understood respect for monuments and the fallen.
And you know what let’s not baby them. They’re young adults and some of their age and younger died in that and other wars. They have the luxury of having won the sperm lottery and being in born in such a time and place where such decisions were not thrust upon them to make.
Tuulie: is your issue that there is too much emotion directed at the disrespect shown by the ALLEGED youths or that there is too much respect shown to the fallen to trigger such a response?
Seriously what debate are you goading here? You don’t hold it as dear to your heart as some, that’s fine, why question those that do? You have no idea what sorrow potentially echos through generations from that day for some.
You cite the lack of respect of those on the beach hit by earthquakes and Tsunami as more deserving of attention, and some might agree, but that’s not the issue being discussed here.
As for the element of this story being hearsay, let’s assume that the count of the events in question are accurate and that said premise is the basis for the emotion of those that took such an issue with it. I don’t think there’d be such an outcry if we all learned this to be a fabricated tale. You can’t ask those kids anything because they are not here, that doesn’t make any of the arguments against such negligence less warranted.
Greg have you been there? It’s different when you see it.
About 20 years ago I had the opportunity to do some travelling around Australia and New Zealand. While I was in Sydney, a picture appeared in all of the local papers of a Japanese tourist standing at the ANZAC Pool of Remembrance in Hyde Park, proudly displaying a Japanese flag. Wrong place to display the Rising Sun. Whether it was ignorance of the Australians’ reverence of this sacred place, their raw sensitivity to treatment of their soldiers at the hands of the Japanese during WW2, or just some perverse bravado on the part of the tourist, but the reaction of some Australians was pretty harsh. Over the course of the next couple of days at least one Japanese tourist was assaulted and several others were subjected to verbal abuse and, I’m sure, threats of physical abuse. The flying of that flag tore open an very painful wound.
I understood their reaction - but could not accept the violence. I suppose my feelings on this post, and this situation in general are that I am prepared to forgive individuals for being ignorant of certain historical or cultural issues. However I do expect individuals to make some attempt to either educate themselves on these issues, or at least to be sympathetic and willing to respect what others see as sacred.
So I understand - but don’t like - the fact that these American kids did not know the history of Juno beach. Perhaps if you grabbed a group of 20 somethings from Canada and asked them what Omaha, Ortona, Juno, Gold, Sword, etc all had in common you’d get some blank stares. However, once you are told that it is a revered and solemn place of remembrance for Canadians , move your party somewhere else with apologies to those you have inadvertantly offended. That is the only decent recourse. They have already shown their ignorance by being their in the first place - referring to it as “just a fucking beach” means they not only don’t understand this specific issue, but don’t have any grasp of the issue of respect, understanding, or sacrifice. It was after all, the sacrifice of these men that allows them to be on the beach at all and by behaving this way they have just shown me that they are not deserving of such a gift.
[quote comment="55197"]re your first point:Critically speaking, this was the largest multinational amphibious assault forces ever assembled. Yes Op OVERLORD has this title.
What facts do you have to dispute that? I and many historians would love to hear.[/quote]
Actually my exception was referred more to the point claiming “setting the continent free” was the (only?) intention of the invasion.
Also neither the aspect of “multinationality” nor the term “amphibic” were mentionend in the original post by matt that I referred to. To go into a full detailed discussion about the invasion would go beyond the capacity of this forum and in terms of technical aspects I have to admit also beyond the scope of my knowledge.
[quote comment="55197"]I was a kid, brainless and stupid, and I understood respect for monuments and the fallen.[/quote]
I was raised in the former GDR. Maybe you have an idea of the relevance the ‘respect for the fallen’ had in my life when I was young.
[quote comment="55197"]Tuulie: is your issue that there is too much emotion directed at the disrespect shown by the ALLEGED youths or that there is too much respect shown to the fallen to trigger such a response?.[/quote]
None of them actually. I am used to discussing things in a neutral and rational way, especially when presenting my views to strangers. That’s what I was taught by my prof who won’t stop telling me that its the art of keeping distance to the analyzed object that makes a good scientist which I hope to become one day. And I think he’s right about that. Emotions in discussions especially in such dealing with matters of high controversy in most cases lead to misunderstandings and chaos. It wasn’t my intention to attack someone.
[quote comment="55197"]Seriously what debate are you goading here? You don’t hold it as dear to your heart as some, that’s fine, why question those that do? You have no idea what sorrow potentially echos through generations from that day for some.[/quote]
Patrick, I’m questioning no one at all. I’m sorry if you feel like that. It seems you desperately seek for getting me wrong. Perhaps it’s my fault as my ability to express myself in english is limited, I don’t know.
[quote comment="55197"]You cite the lack of respect of those on the beach hit by earthquakes and Tsunami as more deserving of attention, and some might agree, but that’s not the issue being discussed here.[/quote]
This is just false as the mentioned excerpt was directly related to the issue the article is dealing with. So what’s your point? Seriously, I don’t see the point in that conversation as the only way you want to contribute to it seems to be affront.
[quote comment="55197"]As for the element of this story being hearsay,[/quote]
TO ME it is of course hearsay since I haven’t had the pleasure to talk to the guy who sent the email nor to the defendents themselves and therefore have no chance to varify the information given.
[quote comment="55197"]let’s assume that the count of the events in question are accurate and that said premise is the basis for the emotion of those that took such an issue with it. I don’t think there’d be such an outcry if we all learned this to be a fabricated tale. You can’t ask those kids anything because they are not here, that doesn’t make any of the arguments against such negligence less warranted.[/quote]
This is your very personal opinion patrick. Some, many might agree but - remember? - that’s not the issue being discussed here. Sorry for the sarcasm but you’re really giving me a hard time staying to the points.
it is not easy to discuss politics on the internet anyway. But it would be far easier if you wouldn’t attack me right away. I’m not here because I think everyone here is an idiot. Such I could have far better elsewhere and for sure I wouldn’t have to fight myself through the english language for that ;)
As I said, I just wanted to talk my opinion. Wanting to discuss an issue doesn’t necessarily mean I think the others talk nonsense. Maybe everyone should calm down. I learned my part today.
Good night.
how terribly ignorant, stupid and arrogant you are.
a memorial is a memorial for a reason and not for some wimpy new generation to come around and party all over.
what do you want to argue about next? seriously, go waste your time elsewhere because trying to defend obnoxious disrespectful drunks, no matter how “well-traveled” you are or how german, is embarrassing.
get down off your university high horse and give your head a shake, would you also tap dance at a funeral?
Tell my grandpa it’s “Just a beach.”
I hate to be the guy that doesn’t hop on the trolley and put down these teeny boppers, but weren’t our grandfathers and thier countrymen fighting so we (the youth of today) could have the freedom to party on whatever beach (and indeed any public land) we want? I don’t understand what the big deal of taking some pictures and having a beer on a warm day is… Saying “It’s just a fucking beach” is ignorant and insulting, but it’s not like they were pissing on the monuments…
EEEXXXACCCCTLLLLLY TELL MINE TOO!
yeah whatever they weren’t pissing on the monument, again, not the point, you can’t just step in and declare it’s cool to cavort in this manner all over the shit, and on the internet, it’s such a slap in the face to err on the side of the kids in this situation, whom would not fucking exist if not for their grandparents.
it’s simple, it’s not just a fucking beach, and you are a fucking asshole to say that and deserve to be spat in your “it’s just a fucking face” for that comment.
Tuuli let it go and let the dead rest and let their generations mourn them.
anything but invites disdain for you.
Quoting Tuply: “weren’t our grandfathers and thier countrymen fighting so we (the youth of today) could have the freedom to party on whatever beach (and indeed any public land) we want?”
I’m pretty sure if you asked any of them, that they would say that the thought of “you partying wherever you wanted” was not what crossed their minds when they signed up, left their families, when they put themselves in harms way, watched their buddies die, and spent years thinking about it afterwards. Reasons were different depending on where you were from; those in England, Ireland, and Scotland obviously were considering the immediate threat to their homeland. Canadians on the other hand, being farther removed geographically, may have signed up over a sense of allegience with GB, or just because the did not want to miss the “big adventure”. I think all that went out the window when they got there and they just fought to stay alive and for the guys in their outfits.
I’m glad these kids were having a good time and have lives that allow them to travel and see the world - really - no sarcasm there at all. However if I’d seen them there I would have politely asked them to move the party somewhere else and explained why. I’d love an opportunity to explain to them why this is such a problem for some people and why just having an innocent beer on a beach came at a cost..
[quote comment="55246"]I hate to be the guy that doesn’t hop on the trolley and put down these teeny boppers, but weren’t our grandfathers and thier countrymen fighting so we (the youth of today) could have the freedom to party on whatever beach (and indeed any public land) we want?[/quote]
Somehow I don’t think fighting for your right to party was going through their minds.
I would suggest an experiment. Find a Juno Beach or Omaha Beach survivor, fly them to Normandy with 10 of your friends, and then party on the beach in front of them. I’d be interested to see what their reaction is.
I’m so…everything…right now.
I can’t believe how many people could even *think* about defending what those assholes were doing on that place that is apparently “just a beach.”
At the same time, I’m also very impressed, though…proud even…of those individuals on here, Canadians especially, who understand…who are so up in arms about it, and aren’t afraid to tell others to get their heads out of their asses.
I guess that goes to show that the world ain’t so bad after all. Not everyone has forgotten the importance of the past.
While we’re on the subject, though. I was thinking about packing up the cooler and heading over to Auschwitz for a shindig. I heard it’s just a camp.
[quote comment="55198"]Greg have you been there? It’s different when you see it.[/quote]
No I haven’t been there. I would truly like to someday but for some of us, our circumstances create our reality. I have however seen pictures of it as it appears now and the Juno Beach Center seems to be an amazing site.
I also have relatives who fought in the war and one great uncle who was at Juno Beach and was fortunate enough to return home. I could not imagine having anything less than the utmost respect for them and what they faced. A monument has dimension and presence. It is a visual reminder and a tribute to those who truly deserve to have us remember and to pass on there experiences to the generations that follow. That is there legacy. A beach is sand and water. The sand has been washed away and replaced over and over again in the last 65 years and will continue to do so for centuries to come. it is oblivious to what happened there.
If someone shows disrespect to a monument, that is blatant and despicable. I believe there is a difference. As I said, if I had been in that situation and knew that it offended anyone, I would not have done what they did.
I certainly hope that you understand that my opinion is just that and it isn’t a reflection of my feelings towards the soldiers that fought and died there. To me, one has nothing to do with the other.
[quote comment="55239"]how terribly ignorant, stupid and arrogant you are.[/quote]
Raymi, it shocked me how quick you are about damning me in such a personal way. Talking about respect clashes heavily with treating people you don’t know in any way like this. Seriously: what have I done to deserve this? Did I attack anyone here personally? No, I didn’t. Did I excuse the excess at the beach? No, I didn’t. I tried to give it all a more neutral nuance, that’s all. Show me the part in my initial post in which I express a general and final opposition to the article! I in fact welcomed some continuative thoughts on the issue provided by the other user.
Did I say in any way that I deny veterans my respect? I did the exact contrary.
What I did was talking about having “difficulties with sharing tendencies to overly celebrate the ‘heroism’ of military actions”. This is my opinion deriving from the fact that I am a strict pacifist which does not mean that I do not accept different positions regarding that point. If this is reason enough for you to call me ignorant or worse, then be it. I wish there was more willingness to seriously deal with other peoples views instead of just assaulting them verbally.
All I did was talking my very personal oppinion. So what is biting you?
I see I seem to have touched upon a sore spot and I apologize if anything of what I said has raised some anger in anyone. This was not my intention as I mentionend earlier nor was it to put myself on a “university highhorse”. The only reason for me to mention the latter was to make clear that I do not claim speaking out absolute truths for me since I’m not a professional but still learning.
None the less the aggressiveness displayed by some few people here is kind of disillusioning. To be honest, there seems a point to be reached I could say anything to put things right it would still worsen everything for you. I deeply regret that.
@everyone: The juno article posted by matt yesterday helped a lot to answer some open questions. So thanks for that. If I had known about the bombardment of “angry emails” following the entry I’d probably kept my thoughts to myself. The Detloff shot is heartbreaking indeed. It stands representative for millions of such fates at that time.
Last night I dreamed of the picture being a movie and myself playing an active part in it. I tried to keep soldiers from leaving, screaming desperately. Then some huge man appeared pushing me back and barking something like “stupid, it’s for the cause.” The man remained faceless. I remember feeling so helpless I cried. I donated some money to some old man standing there with several hats around him and than the scene got blurry.
You see, the issue obviously had a large impact on me.
And to calm everything down a bit:
Later, after I managed to fall asleep again I dreamed of a young Matthew Good pair skating with some unknown girl. They did kind of a comedy peformance on ice, Tina Turner (I’ll never know how I came to dream about her!) doing the musical part for them artfully circling around the pair playing a violin and singing. I remeber feeling a bit estranged by that scenery but yet amused ;oD
Please, please… let’s be friends my dears. It’s a forum, not a battlefield…
[quote comment="55272"]Tuuli let it go and let the dead rest and let their generations mourn them.
anything but invites disdain for you.[/quote]
I’m sorry raymi but, as stated in the above post, I’m affraid you got me wrong in almost every way possible. I sure see the national component in your comment. For you it is about “us and you”, for me its a transnational issue. At no time it was my point that people shouldn’t mourn their dead. Never.
that last comment by raymi is actually by pitt
Nice little spit in the face there to you and others who contributed….. but ya kno…its just a **** beach… ouch.
“Also neither the aspect of “multinationality” nor the term “amphibic” were mentionend in the original post by matt that I referred to.”
No shit, that’s why i said critically speaking
and “defendants”…are you a law student or something?
[quote comment="55140"]Matt, I would like to agree, but I just don’t.
Imagine the sheer number of casualties at battles such as Stalingrad, Leningrad or the Somme/Passchendale (not all that far from Normandy itself). I believe it is necessary to remember, but the land itself is not ’sacred’ in any way. The people of those poor cities affected must look to the future rather than dwell on the past. Monuments have their place, certainly, but these people must get on with their lives and stop being bitter and sad!…..
If we had a monument to every terrible and senseless war humankind has fought over the years, well, France wouldn’t have beaches in the west. Or much in the way of a countryside in the east of the country. And so on.
[/quote]
A couple of things caught my eye here that I’d like to just comment on.
I think the point you’re missing is this….these people wouldn’t be enjoying these beaches at all if it weren’t for what happened on them. They were allowed to “get on with their lives” because some people fought valiantly to ensure they could do so. So, when stepping on those beaches, it’s important to treat them as such and keep that in mind…to show respect there and possibly use it as a time for solemn reflection, not do a big “yee fucking ha”. Here’s the deal…these people look young, so it’s easy to say let them off the hook for that - they’re only doing what young people do in having some fun. But if we do that andTHEY don’t remember, then their children won’t and pretty soon it will all but be forgotten. The people who fought and died there deserve better. There is no excuse for a lack of respect in my view.
[quote comment="55329"][quote comment="55140"]Matt, I would like to agree, but I just don’t.
Imagine the sheer number of casualties at battles such as Stalingrad, Leningrad or the Somme/Passchendale (not all that far from Normandy itself). I believe it is necessary to remember, but the land itself is not ’sacred’ in any way. The people of those poor cities affected must look to the future rather than dwell on the past. Monuments have their place, certainly, but these people must get on with their lives and stop being bitter and sad!…..
If we had a monument to every terrible and senseless war humankind has fought over the years, well, France wouldn’t have beaches in the west. Or much in the way of a countryside in the east of the country. And so on.
[/quote]
A couple of things caught my eye here that I’d like to just comment on.
I think the point you’re missing is this….these people wouldn’t be enjoying these beaches at all if it weren’t for what happened on them. They were allowed to “get on with their lives” because some people fought valiantly to ensure they could do so. So, when stepping on those beaches, it’s important to treat them as such and keep that in mind…to show respect there and possibly use it as a time for solemn reflection, not do a big “yee fucking ha”. Here’s the deal…these people look young, so it’s easy to say let them off the hook for that - they’re only doing what young people do in having some fun. But if we do that andTHEY don’t remember, then their children won’t and pretty soon it will all but be forgotten. The people who fought and died there deserve better.
There is no excuse for a lack of respect in my view.[/quote]
As seriousbusiness mentioned, pretty much all the beaches in the west of France were a battle field. If things are to be the way you are suggesting, it would mean that the entire west coast line of beaches in France is not to be used for enjoyment anymore. Does that truly make any sense to you? This is why monuments are built. They should be treated as sacred. Not sand and water. I think you’re the one missing the point.
If I were in that war I think I’d be highly motivated to drink and piss all over the Reichstag when it was over. I’ve had beer with veterans at the Legion who kept it open past closing time and told the barmaids “Give the boys another beer, it’s what we fought for!”
I know it’s not as simple as that but if we’re wanted to fight for freedom then we might as well get a good dose of it while we can. Drinking on a beach and burning driftwood with friends is one of the nicest nights you can have and I don’t mean any disrespect by saying that Juno Beach would be an ideal place to have a fire and think about Canada someday. I mean, we fought for it, let’s take it, it’s ours.
I agree that there’s more depth to respect than that and that you can’t claim full victory when there were so many losses but why minimize the effect of the victory and maximize the effect of the defeat. If there are ghosts there they’d want me to appreciate every two steps I took without being shot at and I would.
greg it’s not just a beach. it’s not just water and sand. there are things intangible that are tied to things tangible. it’s probably a bad example, and i think i can guess how many will respond to it, but in some cases a parade square is considered hallowed ground even though it’s pavement.
And can we cut this mundane argument about “all the beaches in France”. it’s the beach in front of the monument in question here, and the asinine comments from the punks that followed. if any of you ever GO, you’ll see and know what i’m referring to.
tuuli i don’t know how you can so critically and closely read some of the comments, in part or whole, and then not apply that standard to yourself.
case in point, nobody on here has verbally assaulted you. Verbal implies speech and these are but words on a screen.
if you’re going to refer to the young adults in the story as “defendants” and turn this into a type of moot court you open yourself up to being criticized as such also. for the record, i don’t consider them “defendants”.
You prompt yourself up as being neutral and a pacifist. I’ll challenge you on this.
Your use of the expression ““difficulties with sharing tendencies to overly celebrate the ‘heroism’ of military actions”.
how does that violate being a pacifist? in any way? seriously.
i know a lot of pacifists. they wear poppies on nov.11. in fact i know many pacifists in the army, can you wrap your head around that one?
matt’s labeled himself a pacifist. by virtue of your opinion this cannot be so because his issue with the beach would constitute your assessment of what is too much homage for military actions.
how are you “neutral” if you’re passing judgement on the DEGREE with which people hold this subject dear? that’s quite a sweeping, and yes tuuli, arrogant statement to judge what is OVERLY celebrating.
nobody is saying you have to agree.
again who are you to pass judgement that the military actions are that which is paid reverence by us in this stream? are you inside everyone’s head and hearts? based on your comments here you seem to switch gears quite easily between your self proclaimed objectivity and subjectivity.
how do you know that it is simply the sacrifice that is being honored? a lot of those troops didn’t want to be there you know. but it was a sense of duty that brought them there.
now if duty as it applies to the military doesn’t float your boat, nobody can criticize you for that.
i obviously have a bias, having served, and maybe you just won’t ever get it. i can live with that. what i can’t wrap my head around is why you would put forth such effort to pass judgement on those that do and write over and over that it’s excessive to extend the respect to the beach. or that these actions are overly celebrated. you don’t have to agree but let those to whom it is dear have their tribute. it doesn’t harm you in any way, and yeah, you read arrogant and ignorant sticking to your guns.
your turning an issue of reverence into a debate of words, and for the life of me, i can’t understand why anyone would be so motivated to do so. while raymi will not pull any punches i second her assessment of going to “tap dance at a funeral”. somethings are just better left to yourself.
unless you invite this type of drama, which in my opinion, says a great deal about your character and virtue.
i don’t think you’ll find a lot of allies in similar situations.
Don’t get me wrong, I love a good beach party stocked with pretty girls and cold beer.
But in this case, here’s hoping said party goers unfortunately stumble across some unexploded ordinance.
Maybe writhing around in blood soaked water will bring some perspective.
Not that I’m advocating blowing limbs off as a pedagogical method.
…
Actually…
[quote comment="55323"]and “defendants”…are you a law student or something?[/quote]
To be honest, that was a helpless attempt in being sarcastic.
I think we should let that rest by now. As I see now I couldn’t have picked a worse point of time to come up with my comment. I must appear like some sort of bull in a china shop. I’m sorry for that. All I can do is to emphasize again that I do respect the victim of those who died or were forever traumatized by what happened at Juno.
It is true that, as a pacifist, I view the issue from a totally different perspective than you do as a military member.
Look, I’ve spent most of my childhood and parts of my youth under military occupation. I don’t know if you have an idea what it is like to - as a child - wake up in mornings with soldiers exercising just across the street. Marching, screaming, parading and at night you hear them moaning and bawling in their booze. After sunset you can barely walk quiet remote parts of town alone when you’re a girl or woman.
What I want to say is that I have my own story that affected me and my views on things immensely. It made me what I am today - a 29 year old that simply abhors anything linked to violence and aggression - and the military. That’s why I stick up for ending the occupation of palestine, irak, afghanistan or tibet. It makes me so upset to see people hurt and kill each other for goals that are actually set up by small elites.
However, for me this differenc of position is far away from being a reason to not respect you or something. The other way round - I’m not sure to be honest…
[quote comment="55342"]
case in point, nobody on here has verbally assaulted you. Verbal implies speech and these are but words on a screen.[/quote]
I’m affraid I have to correct you here, patrick. Verbal refers to words - and words can be expressed orally as well as in writing. Writing is nothing less than another form of speech. As for the assault thing I can say that I did feel assaulted. How would you feel about someone calling you to be stupid and ignorant? Do we really have to fight over that side issue?
[quote comment="55342"]You prompt yourself up as being neutral and a pacifist. I’ll challenge you on this.
Your use of the expression ““difficulties with sharing tendencies to overly celebrate the ‘heroism’ of military actions”.
how does that violate being a pacifist? in any way? seriously.[/quote]
That’s a question of how everyone defines the term. As a pacifist I personally abhore every kind of aggressive military action as well as attempts to overly glorify such actions as I am aware of the selfishness and stonecold calculation of political taticism behind it. I don’t adress soldiers here, I’m adressing politics. As you see I don’t reduce it down to one single definition possible. So I wonder how are going to keep up the argument of me denying Matt being a pacifist by talking about *my own* pacifist definition.
[quote comment="55342"]i know a lot of pacifists. they wear poppies on nov.11. in fact i know many pacifists in the army, can you wrap your head around that one?[/quote]
I have my difficulties with it, actually. But hell, do we have to lead a war over that? Why can’t there be different ways of defining the term pacifist? To me personally being a pacifist has the meaning I mentioned above. According to this I consider it an paradox being a pacifist which means to oppose everything linked to violent aggression while being in the army at the same time and being there for the exact things a pacifist is questioning by name. But,… nothing’s impossible though. I don’t have my oppionins and views carved into stone and some people would do a good one reconsidering their own attitude regarding that point.
Soldiers denying service in irak or the occupied territories of palestine coming to my mind… I don’t know if it’s that what you are talking about.
[quote comment="55342"]matt’s labeled himself a pacifist. by virtue of your opinion this cannot be so because his issue with the beach would constitute your assessment of what is too much homage for military actions.[/quote]
No, there is in fact a possibility to be a pacifist alltogether, but making exceptions that derive from very personal experiences and reasons. Take the Holocaust survivors for example. Some of them might be the most peaceful and gentle people in the world but let go imediately if it comes to Germans - understandably engoug.
I’d never question Matthews love for peace and his dislike of violence which he is prooving on this side every day a new. I wasn’t here if I did. He openly wrote about his own family being directly involveld in the incidents around the Invasion of the normandy. For that please read the introducing lines of my initial posting.
I spoke of MYSELF, not of him when saying that being a pacifist was the reason *for me* to abstain from celebrating military events overly.
[quote comment="55342"]how are you “neutral” if you’re passing judgement on the DEGREE with which people hold this subject dear? that’s quite a sweeping, and yes tuuli, arrogant statement to judge what is OVERLY celebrating.[/quote]
“judgement”??? I never judged ANYONE or anything! I came up with my *personal* views, I always referred to myself and I always kept to the issue, not to a person, that’s a difference! Youre trying to construct something that never actually took place, patrick.
[quote comment="55342"]nobody is saying you have to agree.[/quote]
Oh no, it’s not that simple. It’s not just about to agree or disagree. There’s a lot of colours between black and white.
[quote comment="55342"]i obviously have a bias, having served, and maybe you just won’t ever get it. i can live with that. [/quote]
I noted that.
[quote comment="55342"]what i can’t wrap my head around is why you would put forth such effort to pass judgement on those that do and write over and over that it’s excessive to extend the respect to the beach. [/quote]
WHERE did I do that??? I’m speechless really. I have just one word for that: UNFAIR! Please read my initial comment carefully patrick. God, I never ever placed a judgment over anyone or anything. I simply spoke my mind on the issue. And as it looks right now you’re having a problem with that.
Yes I disagreed with the DEGREE of outrage the article and lots of the comments were expressing over the incident and all I did was giving an explanation of what being MY PERSONAL reasons for that!
What you are doing now is perverting that into an arrogant hate speech that is giving a shit about “everything that’s inside peoples hearts”! And worse, you won’t stop no matter how much I try and put it right. There you see how much your verdict is carved into stone. I don’t know what to say about that since I’m tired to excuse for things I never did. I appologized for perhaps not having struck the right note or having expressed myself not clearly enough and tried to clear things up. You ignored that. I have to accept that.
[quote comment="55239"]no matter … how german [you are], [/quote]
http://www.ilt-reinhart.de/bilder/fragezeichen.jpg
ver·bal (vûrbl)
3. Expressed in spoken rather than written words
How would I feel if someone called me ignorant or stupid? Depends on the source, I’ve been called worse. Right now were it from you, it’s rolling off my back.
I wasn’t being sarcastic. You brought up the critical script of Matt’s comment, I held you to bat on the critical script of yours. You called the kids in the email - defendants. I asked if you’re a student of law. How is that sarcasm?
Yeah I was in the army, I know soldiers, I’m familiar with the life on a base.
So based on your troubled experiences to that lifestyle, you have a sterotype and bias against all things military, and in support of military, and condem them as all being against what a pacifist stands for? So much for objectivty Tuuli.
What about the Military Family Resource Centre? A military chaplain? What about a PTSD clinic? What about conscripts?
They carry out actions of a military nature, do you abhore them? That’s why you’ve been labeled arrogant.
You prefix so many comments with, “as a pacifist…”
When you start an argument like that, as opposed to, “in my opinion,” you are grouping yourself.
That is a premise that sets the conditions that if someone is kosher with the DEGREE of outrage shown in the comments, than they cannot be a pacifist.
Notwithstanding tuuli, I know you spoke your mind. I know you don’t really speak for all pacifists. And in person you’re probably not as arrogant as these comments read.
Here’s my point. You don’t like the degree with which people are outraged by the actions and insensitivities of those punks. But some people here are outraged because they hold it dear to them. What harm is it to you, to keep that opinion to yourself? Free speech aside, what trouble is it to you, to pay that courtesy?
Or was your upbrining so troubled, so horrendous, that this is, IN YOUR OPINION, the opportune time to get something off your chest.
[quote comment="55519"]ver·bal (vûrbl)
3. Expressed in spoken rather than written words[/quote]
You correctly mentioned speech. So what do we have to argue over that? Writing is a form of speech. And jesus, don’t you see the arrogance in your denial? I DID feel assaulted - do you really want to make a difference there to wether this happened orally or in written style? This is ridiculous. You’re simply denying, the denial itsself being your one and only motivation.
[quote comment="55519"]I wasn’t being sarcastic. You brought up the critical script of Matt’s comment, I held you to bat on the critical script of yours. You called the kids in the email - defendants. I asked if you’re a student of law. How is that sarcasm?[/quote]
1. I can’t really figure what you mean by saying “You brought up the critical script of Matt’s comment, I held you to bat on the critical script of yours”, sorry. I am guessing, but not sure.
2. Do you read my comments carefully? I clearly wrote that calling the people “defendants” was an attempt in sarcasm of MYSELF. I am NOT being sarcastic when noticing that this seems to be a general problem here. You constantly misstake things I say and that are referred to myself as referred to anyone else. That’s not funny anymore.
[quote comment="55519"]Yeah I was in the army, I know soldiers, I’m familiar with the life on a base.
So based on your troubled experiences to that lifestyle, you have a sterotype and bias against all things military, and in support of military, and condem them as all being against what a pacifist stands for? So much for objectivty Tuuli.[/quote]
One question: do you consider this reaction of yours to my story in any way more sensitive or respectful in regard to my feelings than you felt yourself about my reaction to the article? It’s a shame, to be honest. I may have been disagreeing IN PART but I always expressed my respect for peoples/your feelings, I never hesitated to agree in certain points and always tried to understand your position.. As about you: you simply DON’T CARE about my feelings and the experiences they derive from. You’re using that against people discrediting their motives. That’s just disillusioning.
Just one thing about that: Having made my experiences doesn’t automatically mean that I have a bias with things, as many of my friends, family members and neighbours that made the same experiences in their youth did not devolopp pacifistic attitudes or such an intense interest in history and politics and even served in the military themselves. I had the brother of my best friend being lightly harmed in a bomb attack near Kabul 5 years ago. It was things like that which contributed to me becoming a pacifist which was actually a slow process, not something caused by trauma. But that’s something you just won’t accept or even think about. You take everything I say as an affront and your only ambition in this conversation seems to be to get me down. And as this is starting to really hit me personally, I am cutting this off now.
[quote comment="55283"]I’m so…everything…right now.
I can’t believe how many people could even *think* about defending what those assholes were doing on that place that is apparently “just a beach.”
At the same time, I’m also very impressed, though…proud even…of those individuals on here, Canadians especially, who understand…who are so up in arms about it, and aren’t afraid to tell others to get their heads out of their asses.
I guess that goes to show that the world ain’t so bad after all. Not everyone has forgotten the importance of the past.
While we’re on the subject, though. I was thinking about packing up the cooler and heading over to Auschwitz for a shindig. I heard it’s just a camp.[/quote]
I totally missed that one.
As for the Auschwitz-thing:
http://www.allbusiness.com/middle-east/israel/635320-1.html
Oh, there we have an (former) art student again. Maybe we should think about precautionarily send all art students to re-education?
This is questionable of course and there is of course reason to call that respectless. But it always remains DISCUSSABLE! And to discuss over that doesn’t mean at all that one doesn’t imply respectlessness as well.
And after having appologized for nearly everything possible I want to finally appologize for not having a canadian view on the issue (which is I’m affraid a bit difficult when you actually aren’t canadian) but an outspokenly international one which must be really something truly damnable.
Call me stupid, ignorant, respectless but… what is wrong wi