I Saw One On The Back Of A Car Today And I Wondered…
August 3, 2008, Matthew Good 
On April 9th, 1865, Lee’s Army Of Northern Virginia, then in ruins and running West from St. Petersburg fighting a futile rear guard action, surrendered to Grant at Appomattox Court House. In the four years prior to that event, the Rebel Flag, which was never the official flag of the Confederate States of America, was present at almost every battle fought by the Confederacy. The reason being that is was the Confederate battle standard, not the standard of the Confederacy itself, a misconception that has survived for over 140 years.
In truth, the original flag of the Confederacy was The Stars and Bars which was replaced in 1863 by The Stainless Banner. Added to these was The Bonnie Blue Flag, after which the song was penned, which remained the unofficial flag of the Confederacy during its entire existence.
Of all of the flags of the Confederate States of America, only one would ever include the image of the Confederacy’s battle standard, The Rebel Flag, that being The Stainless Banner - not including Naval Jacks.
143 years after Lee’s surrender at Appomattox, The Rebel Flag strangely survives as some bizarre symbol of – well, I’m not rightly sure. While some might argue that it is a quintessential part of Southern history, the fact remains that what The Rebel Flag stood for was not something that should be historically celebrated. True, the initial grievances of the those States that seceded centered around State’s rights, but the reality remains that the Confederate government fought to maintain a society in which slavery was not only considered economically quintessential, but one in which Whites viewed African Americans an inhuman. The true irony of the Confederate armed forces was that they consisted of a vast majority of poor Southerners that didn’t own slaves. In fact, the Confederacy was the first to implement a military draft in North American history, with one very interesting loophole. If you happened to own 20 or more slaves you were exempt.
Confederate soldier Sam Watkins, who would publish the renowned ‘Company Aytch: Or, a Side Show of the Big Show’ after the war, having somehow survived the entire war despite the fact that he was involved in some of its most savage engagements, wrote of the conscription act…
“A law was made by the Confederate States Congress about this time allowing every person who owned twenty negroes to go home. It gave us the blues; we wanted twenty Negroes. Negro property suddenly became very valuable, and there was raised the howl of ‘rich man’s war, poor man’s fight.’ The glory of the war, the glory of the South, the glory and pride of our volunteers had no charms for the conscript.”
[…]
“From this time on till the end of the war, a soldier was simply a machine, a conscript. It was mighty rough on rebels. We cursed the war, we cursed Bragg, we cursed the Southern Confederacy. All our pride and valor had gone, and we were sick of war and the Southern Confederacy.”
Interestingly enough, in modern culture The Rebel Flag is something predominantly exalted by the very same class of people that, had they served in the Confederate army at the time, were the sort that didn’t even own shoes, let alone slaves.
So what does The Rebel Flag stand for? Does it exist as nothing more than a modern showpiece of Americana, or do those that unabashedly and naively promote its image sincerely believe in what the Confederate States of America stood for?
In short, is The Rebel Flag a symbol that still promotes the sentiments of the Southern Confederacy? And if so, then is included in that promotion the belief that African Americans are members of a sub-human species?
To me, The Rebel Flag is a symbol that reflects an ideology, no different than the Swastika.
There is no question that the military feats of the South during the Civil War have completely overshadowed the political ideology of the government for which they fought. Lee, for example, has become a giant within the pantheon of American mythology despite the fact that he commanded forces that existed to protect a way of life that believed in the practice of slavery. That’s certainly not to say that all Confederate commanders were steadfast in their support of it, Lee included. Despite the overt bigotry displayed by the likes of Nathan Bedford Forrest, who founded the Ku Klux Klan only to leave it after it grew too violent even for him, others within the Southern high command knew all too well that the issue of slavery would ultimately cost the South the war, as no foreign power would recognize the South with slavery still a part of its design. At the Battle of Gettysburg, General James Longstreet even went so far as to say to a visiting British attaché that the South should have freed the slaves prior to firing on Fort Sumter.
After the Emancipation Proclamation took effect on January 1st, 1863, the South was left with two possibilities. Invade the north again in an attempt to get between Union forces and Washington and force the North to sue for peace, or for Lincoln to lose the 1864 federal election to George McClellan, who ran on a platform of Southern recognition.
Of course, McClellan would lose the election in 1884, and in late June of 1863 Lee would make the arrogant mistake of refusing to disengage at Gettysburg after the first day, move south towards Washington itself, find ground on which the Union would be forced to attack him at great loss, and succeed in not only significantly diminishing public support in the North for the war, which was precarious at the time, but militarily cripple the Army of the Potomac. At the time, Longstreet tirelessly attempted to remind Lee that their objective had always been to conduct a defensive campaign. Unfortunately, and despite the fact that John Buford’s 1st Cavalry, aided by the timely arrival of John F. Reynolds’s I Corps, secured the high ground for the Union after repulsing Henry Heth’s Division, Lee refused to disengage.
Lee, who by that time had come to believe in his own invincibility, and that of his men, sealed the fate of the Confederacy during those three days, though it would take another two years and countless more lives before the conflict was resolved. Had Meade acted aggressively following the disastrously ill-conceived Confederate assault on that third day by forcing the Army of Northern Virginia to fight a substantial rear guard action, he could have ended the war. Instead he chose not to, and what remained of Lee’s army was allowed to slip back across the Potomac into Virginia.
On that last day, James Longstreet confided in Lee that he believed that the attack was doomed to fail and requested that overall command of the attack be placed in the hands of General Richard Ewell. Lee refused, and when Longstreet was approached and asked if the attack should be made his only response was to grievously nod. By the end of the day, George Pickett’s entire Division was lost.
The myth and glory surrounding Southern military successes during the Civil War have come to overshadow the ideology of what was ultimately being fought to protect – a way of life in which an entire race of people were widely viewed and treated like animals. The symbol of the Confederate military, The Rebel Flag, has also survived as a symbol of Southern pride and defiance, again despite the fact that it represented the forces of a rebellion whose ideology was steeped in ignorance and inhumanity. And yet, it is not uncommon to still see it adorning automobiles, clothing, and numerous other things – nor is it uncommon to see the flag itself flown here and there.
Out of every ten slaves brought to North America, two died before the journey was complete - a rough estimate. In all, it is believed that between ten and twenty million African American slaves were forcefully sent to the United States. On South Carolina and Georgia’s rice plantations, almost 90% of African American slaves perished before the age of sixteen. Such figures were common. One in three slaves commonly did not reach adulthood.
One wonders when someone purchases a Rebel Flag bikini, cell phone cover, or belt buckle that doubles as a bottle opener, whether such realities cross their mind? Despite the Emancipation Proclamation and the Constitutional amendments that would follow, the Jim Crow South offered African Americans little solace. From January 1st of 1863 until the 1960’s, African Americans in the South would remain symbols of one of the most egregious hypocrisies in the history of any democratic nation. In the end they would win the right to be treated as equal citizens in a country for which many had fought and died despite their treatment. And to their credit, and to the shame of those Whites that viewed them as second-class citizens, they were able to accomplish that goal in an admirable fashion.
In 1947 Jackie Robinson stepped on to Ebbets Field despite the fact some of his fellow players had started a petition to refuse to play along side him. Prior to signing with the Dodgers he made a promise to Branch Ricky that for three years he would not respond to the harsh treatment that Ricky knew awaited him. Robinson, after considering Ricky’s proposal, accepted, and, after a short stint with the Montreal Royals, became the first African American player to survive in Major League Baseball. Despite the belief that Robinson was the first African American to play big league ball, he was not. But his introduction into the game ultimately broke the colour barrier that had been staunchly in place for decades, one that existed as nothing more than a gentleman’s agreement among team owners.
But Robinson’s talent and conduct, which would eventually sway the views of those that had taken up the petition against him, as well as many others, was irrefutably brilliant. In 1949 he was the National League’s MVP. In the decade that followed, African Americans in the National League would be voted the MVP seven times, with Roy Campanella winning three times, Ernie Banks twice, Willy Mays once, and Hank Aaron once. All five of them would go on to be inducted into the Hall Of Fame.
But prior to the colour barrier being broken, some of games greatest players would go completely unrecognized. Probably the saddest example is that of power hitter Josh Gibson, whose lifetime batting average exceeded Babe Ruth’s. In 1934, Gibson hit 69 homeruns, and it is widely believed that his all time homerun record is actually around the 800 mark, making him, to this day, the title-holder, a fact that was mentioned by Barry Bonds when he succeeded in breaking Hank Aaron’s all time homerun record. Gibson’s performance in 1934 alone shattered Babe Ruth’s single season homerun record by nine homeruns, and while Ted Williams is hailed as the only man to bat over .400 in a single season, Gibson hit well over .400 in four different seasons. Gibson died in 1947 at the age of 35 from a stroke after being diagnosed with a brain tumor in 1943. During the 1943 season his average was .474.
America remains one of the most bizarre democratic paradoxes in modern history. While professing to be a nation of free men at its birth, it also chose to tolerate the continued practice of slavery. Eventually that practice would be confronted in the most devastating conflict in US history. And even though the outcome of that war saw Constitutional amendments introduced forever altering the nation’s path, racism’s dark shadow remained prevalent in the mainstream for almost a century afterwards.
It is not for me to say that The Rebel Flag is something that should be stricken from memory or use. Free societies are based on the rights of citizens to express their beliefs, no matter their ignorance or naivety. That said; I do believe that those that continue to promote it, in whatever fashion, should never forget the ideology that it ultimately espoused.
This little symbol lets you @ another comment
Thanks for today’s lesson. This was a great read to wake up to and enjoy my morning coffee.
Have you ever been to Cooperstown? It is a wonderful place for baseball historians.
“That said; I do believe that those that continue to promote it, in whatever fashion, should never forget the ideology that it ultimately espoused.” In truth, they probably haven’t a clue. Ignorance reigns. On showing my UK passport in some wild west backwater, a woman once asked me which part of the Ukraine I was from…
Thanks for the history lesson :0)
When I attended university in Richmond this previous school year, I saw a good number of people sporting the Rebel flag as bumper stickers (”It’s a heritage!”) or other various things. One day I was driving on West Broad Street with my friend, I looked over at the truck next to me and I saw the ceiling of the guy’s truck was the Rebel flag. I remember one of my friends and I had an argument over what the Civil War was really over and he strongly believes that it was over State’s rights but this guy also thinks that we should bomb Japan again and he wrote a long paper about it for his Homeland Security major.
Gratuitous and annoying photo aside, that was a good read…though I wasn’t expecting the (interesting nonetheless) turn to baseball. I was really into Civil War history when I was a kid, but somehow I missed knowing all that stuff about child slaves. Sad. The South still hasn’t quite figured out the whole racial equality thing in practice (at least not as far as I understand). Have you ever been to Gettysburg? It’s quite unsettling - a giant empty field full of ghosts…
for me the it’s all as watered down as wearing a Che Guevara tee shirt. just some kind of fashion statement. of course the old timers will wear the stars and bars to show that the battle still goes on, if only in their minds.
My parents both moved to Florida from New York in their early twenties and are both still shocked at how quickly they became “inducted” into the Southern conservative lifestyle. Now, that’s not to say they became hillybilly wackjobs flying the confederate flag and drinking beer in their folding lawn chairs, but it does speak something of the social attitude and the pressures placed on people there to conform to the Southern attitude. These people are products of the environment who think that their thoughts are the right thoughts simply because that’s what Dad says and that’s what Grandpa says.
I find it funny that my parents both moved back here to Buffalo and now look back on their days in Florida and say “What the hell was I thinking?”
Again, not making generalizations about Southern people, but the attitude there is so different. My grandparents lived down the street from people who flew a gigantic confederate flag off their roof. I sincerely think that these people don’t quite get what it stands for other than them thnking that they are showing support for their way of life. They see it and think “Southern superiority” and don’t go any deeper than that.
Wow, Matt. Great food for thought. Thanks for the interesting (as always!) read.
The last one I saw was on the bumper of a truck that had a huge “HILLBILLY DELUXE” decal on the back window.
‘Nuff said.
I have a hard time with the whole “the south will rise again” nonsense too.
My heros are people like Elmore James, Son House, Robert Johnson and others who grew up in the Mississippi Delta and other places in the south. They took the pain and stigma of being part of one of the most oppressed groups in the world and turned it into an art form that still shapes our world today.
There are other examples that give the lie to the belief that African Americans are somehow inferior. During WW II some of the most effective US units were entirely made up of black personel.
The 761 Battallion “Black Panther” was formed in 1942 and spent two years in training in the US due to reluctance on the part of the US high command to commit black soldiers to combat. Jackie Robinson was one its most famous members. It went into combat in November of 1944 at a time when detached battallions had an average lifespan of two weeks in action. The 761 fought through till the end of the European campaign in May 1945 and had a record second to none in the US army. Its members went on to form the core of the Civil Rights movement in the south in the years after the war.
The all black 332nd Fighter Group was another elite US formation in WW II. The standards to qualify were set so high that only the most capable pilots were left after training. While the claim that the Redtails lost no escorted bombers to enemy aircraft has been disputed, the fact remains that they were often specifically requested by bomber groups made up of all white personel because of their ability to bring them back alive.
Great piece Matt.
I had this argument years ago with someone I went to school with. He and his roommate flew a giant Rebel flag in their dorm window (and also had a belt buckle with the same flag), which my room conveniently looked out on. I thought it was tasteless; he could not for the life of him fathom why I or anyone else would think so. (I couldn’t for the life of me fathom why he was attached to it in the first place, given that he was a Canadian with no ties to the U.S. anyway.) I think it’s a symbol that’s been misappropriated and, to a lot of people, just represents good ol’ boys, which, it turns out, was why these homesick farmers from small-town Ontario were proudly displaying the flag in the middle of a McGill campus. For them, it went alongside their cowboy boots and hats as a part of expressing who they were and what they were about.
I still find it tasteless.
(I would also hazard a guess that there are those who display that flag knowing full well what it means and represents. Probably far too many.)
Tuuli22, you are absolutely right. I wrote this at 4 in the morning and that generalization skipped my mind. It’s been amended.
There were problems with the Emancipation proclamation as well.
When it was first issued, it only affected slaves in Confederate or newly liberated states. the few slave states that sided with the North were not required to free their slaves until after the end of the war.
[quote comment="60483"]Tuuli22, you are absolutely right. I wrote this at 4 in the morning and that generalization skipped my mind. It’s been amended.[/quote]
??? OK….so where has Tuuli22’s post gone?? Sorry Matt, but I missed it.
And WTF are you doing up so early anyway? Must admit, I didn’t go to bed ’til daylight myself ;0)
[quote comment="60483"] I wrote this at 4 in the morning … [/quote]
yep, I guessed it was something like that… ;)
While I agree with the disgust that the Rebel Flags represents, I know that to a few its meaning is lost upon them, or they just dont care to be educated on its origin.. As you know my family is from Iran and I have had a lot of education provided to me ( although my grammer and spelling suck) from all over. The lady who used to take care of me when I was little was named, Reka. She had a picture of a Swastika in her bedroom.. I was really young and didnt understand the meaning of it, as it pertained to the Hindu religion. I had only seen it as a Nazi image.. so I asked Reka what it meant to her people… so she educated me on it. I find it important to mention that the image of the Swastika was stolen from the Hindu’s.. The image is sacred and can be found in a lot of books and around a lot ruins in India, its meaning is beautiful: it means luck or rebirth..The Nazi’s took the image reversed it and adopted it as their own bastardized version .. The word “Svastika” is Sanskrit and means “good to be” or something along those lines. Its unfortuante to see a image that is holy to some become something that represents evil to others.. Hitler liked what the word meant and took its meaning and twisted it to fit his propganda machine.. the image stuck as evil. I could be wrong about that, but I think im pretty correct.
I’m from the west coast, but I’ve been living in the south for awhile. I’ve never understood the whole “Southern Pride” thing. Especially seeing as how the county I live in was fighting for the north. Although I suspect most people living here have no idea about that. Most families around here are very close. Some people live with or near their parents for their entire lives. The rebel flag will continue to live on because the racism behind it is past down through the generations. With many towns around here not developing like larger cities the demographics will stay the same. My town made up of is 97.86% white Americans and 0.92% African Americans. It will probably stay that way for some time. Yes I’ve made some generalities, but they are true for the most part. At least for where I live.
[quote comment="60470"]Gratuitous and annoying photo aside, that was a good read…though I wasn’t expecting the (interesting nonetheless) turn to baseball. I was really into Civil War history when I was a kid, but somehow I missed knowing all that stuff about child slaves. Sad. The South still hasn’t quite figured out the whole racial equality thing in practice (at least not as far as I understand). Have you ever been to Gettysburg? It’s quite unsettling - a giant empty field full of ghosts…[/quote]
Been to the Ghost of Gettysburg tour on halloween weekend. Absolutely awesome!!! If anyone ever gets a chance, visit in the fall and do the tour. Go the the famous Gettysburg Brewery have some “real ale” before you do the tour so you can unwind before you get creeped out! The National Civil war museum in Harrisburg is a must too. Covers the entire history of the war.
Matt, come to think of it, you would make a fantastic tour guide on the battlefields, or how about lending your voice to one of those auto car tours with your version of cival war music in the background. LOL :)
Great entry
[quote comment="60486"][quote comment="60483"]Tuuli22, you are absolutely right. I wrote this at 4 in the morning and that generalization skipped my mind. It’s been amended.[/quote]
??? OK….so where has Tuuli22’s post gone?? Sorry Matt, but I missed it.
And WTF are you doing up so early anyway? Must admit, I didn’t go to bed ’til daylight myself ;0)[/quote]
He amended the adressed parts of his entry and thus I think deleted my post to avoid confusions, since it now wouldn’t make any sense in regard to his entry.
[quote comment="60491"][quote comment="60486"][quote comment="60483"]Tuuli22, you are absolutely right. I wrote this at 4 in the morning and that generalization skipped my mind. It’s been amended.[/quote]
??? OK….so where has Tuuli22’s post gone?? Sorry Matt, but I missed it.
And WTF are you doing up so early anyway? Must admit, I didn’t go to bed ’til daylight myself ;0)[/quote]
He amended the adressed parts of his entry and thus I think deleted my post to avoid confusions, since it now wouldn’t make any sense in regard to his entry.[/quote]
Uhhh….OK…that’s cool then.
Even after 7 years of living in the south, in middle Tennessee, I’m still pretty shocked to see it as much as I do, especially when I drive outside of Nashville itself.
Bumper stickers, having it painted on the rear windows of pickup trucks, t-shirts, you name it.
When I was in high school there was an African American girl wearing a shirt with a rebel flag one day. When someone asked her about it she gave some answer about being proud to be from the south or something like that. I still don’t really understand her reasoning.
[quote comment="60491"][quote comment="60486"][quote comment="60483"]Tuuli22, you are absolutely right. I wrote this at 4 in the morning and that generalization skipped my mind. It’s been amended.[/quote]
??? OK….so where has Tuuli22’s post gone?? Sorry Matt, but I missed it.
And WTF are you doing up so early anyway? Must admit, I didn’t go to bed ’til daylight myself ;0)[/quote]
He amended the adressed parts of his entry and thus I think deleted my post to avoid confusions, since it now wouldn’t make any sense in regard to his entry.[/quote]
Yep, it made no sense after the amendment so I removed it for the sake of avoiding confusion.
I live in Eastern Tennessee and grew up in Southwest Virginia, so my exposure to the Rebel flag has been excessive to say the least. I would dare say that the majority of those who sport the colors have little to no knowledge of the things it represents and represented, that Matt discussed above. I took a Civil War history class in high school, and it was surprisingly taught with minimal Confederacy bias.
Today in the region I live in, the Rebel flag is synonymous with racism, and other negative connotations. When I moved to Tennessee in 2004, I was disturbed to find some homes flying KKK flags and Rebel flags in their yards. From that point on I never saw it really as an acceptable flag to fly, regardless of the intent behind it.
Good article, Matt.
I worked for many years at a public history museum where once a year the Civil War reenactors descended for a weekend of mock battles. Even though we are in Northeast Ohio, we would always have an overwhelming number of Confederates sign up as opposed to Union reenactors (making it a bit hard to present an accurate battle!). To say they took their role and the Rebel flag seriously is an understatement. As a public history promoter, I was excited that so many were interested in looking at the past. The scary part is to see how many people wanted to LIVE in the past. For a good deal of the population, it isn’t the lessons that they take away from history, it’s the cool costumes and awesome catchphrases. Sad but true.
[quote comment="60488"]While I agree with the disgust that the Rebel Flags represents, I know that to a few its meaning is lost upon them, or they just dont care to be educated on its origin.. As you know my family is from Iran and I have had a lot of education provided to me ( although my grammer and spelling suck) from all over. The lady who used to take care of me when I was little was named, Reka. She had a picture of a Swastika in her bedroom.. I was really young and didnt understand the meaning of it, as it pertained to the Hindu religion. I had only seen it as a Nazi image.. so I asked Reka what it meant to her people… so she educated me on it. I find it important to mention that the image of the Swastika was stolen from the Hindu’s.. The image is sacred and can be found in a lot of books and around a lot ruins in India, its meaning is beautiful: it means luck or rebirth..The Nazi’s took the image reversed it and adopted it as their own bastardized version .. The word “Svastika” is Sanskrit and means “good to be” or something along those lines. Its unfortuante to see a image that is holy to some become something that represents evil to others.. Hitler liked what the word meant and took its meaning and twisted it to fit his propganda machine.. the image stuck as evil. I could be wrong about that, but I think im pretty correct.[/quote]
You are totally right on this. I was a bit disturbed to see swastikas painted all over buildings in India when I was there until I discovered the meaning of the symbol and it’s roots to the Hindu people.
For all those peole who believe that the conferate flag is just a symbol of Good ol boy’s and all that’s southern, why then are there no African Americans flying this flag??? It should be though of just like the swastikas, a symbol of hate.
Growing up in a small town I guess it’s mandatory that a certain number of rootin’ trucks with 12” lifts and above have an oversized ‘Confederate Flag’ (as we called them) flying from the truck bed. This usually was accompanied with naked lady mud flaps and a gun rack that was easily accessible from the front seat, holding more shotguns than passengers mind you.
I remember when I was a sophomore in high school our district hired a new head of security who happened to be African American. This was huge for our small town as there was no diversity what so ever. I didn’t really pay much attention until 5 months later when he quit. The rumor was someone had shoved a small Confederate flag under his office door. I never knew if it was true but before I hadn’t really thought much about that flag, it had meaning after that incident.
The rebel flag is like any other flag; it means different things to different people. For some, it is a symbol of racism. For others, regional pride. For yet others, rebellion. No flag (and no nation) does not have dark aspects to its history… but they also usually have some positive aspects that people choose to embrace. At the end of the day, it’s just a piece of cloth; to assign too much meaning to it is to put yourself in the same boat with people who criticize Obama for not wearing a flag lapel pin.
(That being said, as an American, I would not be sad to never see a rebel flag again outside of a textbook or a museum.)
just happened across this quote by Robert E. Lee this week-
which i thought was pretty killer, no pun intended…
and then saw your post, so-
“What a cruel thing is war: to separate and destroy families and friends, and mar the purest joys and happiness God has granted us in this world; to fill our hearts with hatred instead of love for our neighbors, and to devastate the fair face of this beautiful world.”
– Robert E. Lee, letter to his wife, 1864
vincent, in buffalo
http://louisebrooks.com
‘Bizarre paradox’, certainly.
Interesting to note that not only did Europe abolish or phase out slavery long before (in some instances up to a century before, around the time of the revolution itself). Britain ended it in 1807, Sweden about that time, Austria soon after. France tried to do it in 1794 but it tried to make a comeback several times. Several government houses refused to abolish it several times because the legislature itself had members heavily dependent on the slave trade. Yet America continues to pose as a beacon of freedom and hope and as a genuinely progressive nation when this has consistently been fairly far from the reality.
On top of that, for most (perhaps all) of the Civil War there were in fact more slaves and slave states in the Union than the Confederacy. So certainly, considering the enormous losses taken (relative to the population) in the South, there must have been other motivations.
I’ll not for a minute defend the racist and imperialist nature of slavery. But I believe there were legitimate reasons for the secession and that the Confederacy may (at least potentially) have become a terrific nation in its own right. Their flag looks brilliant, however steeped in hypocrisy their ideology.
Just realized some were even earlier than I thought, Russia 1723 (but serfdom remains), Portugal 1761, etc and a few others. Interesting stuff. In many cases though, slaves were not freed, only prevented from being sold and sometimes not actively - and many colonies were exempt from such laws (eg French continued slavery in the empire; although Britain and others outlawed more completely). Britain is a case of reformism - slaves were not freed immediately but slavery soon fell out of vogue anyway - this prevented the backlash from slavers while simultaneously ending slavery in the longer term. A good reminder, to my mind, that reformism, however slow, can be a very good thing in the longer term.
…I also have to ask if anybody else sees this…that gal on the left…is that a penguin tattoo??
[quote comment="60495"]When I was in high school there was an African American girl wearing a shirt with a rebel flag one day. When someone asked her about it she gave some answer about being proud to be from the south or something like that. I still don’t really understand her reasoning.[/quote]
That might have been exactly what I actually adressed in my now deleted posting, stating that there can be several reasons for people dedicating themselves to a certain symbol, other than identifying with the ideology it once stood for.
[quote comment="60533"]The rebel flag is like any other flag; it means different things to different people. For some, it is a symbol of racism. For others, regional pride. For yet others, rebellion. No flag (and no nation) does not have dark aspects to its history… but they also usually have some positive aspects that people choose to embrace.[/quote]
That’s exactly what I am thinking. ;)
I always wonder why the hammer & sickle is such a popular icon despite being the biggest killer ideology ever conceived. Certainly, some positive elements, but could that same rationale be accepted for the Swastika and public Nazism?
Surely not.
There are people wearing Che Guevara who don’t know who he is, much less about his various faults in government. You could argue he was a liberator; but it is difficult to imagine present-day Cuba would not be better off if he had not existed. Corruption, surely, but also growth and economic prosperity (although at a cost, naturally). But it still shits me people simply don’t know but are happy to support a fashion thats very meaning will soon seem as distant as Napoleon.
[quote comment="60577"]I always wonder why the hammer & sickle is such a popular icon despite being the biggest killer ideology ever conceived. Certainly, some positive elements, but could that same rationale be accepted for the Swastika and public Nazism?
Surely not.
There are people wearing Che Guevara who don’t know who he is, much less about his various faults in government. You could argue he was a liberator; but it is difficult to imagine present-day Cuba would not be better off if he had not existed. Corruption, surely, but also growth and economic prosperity (although at a cost, naturally). But it still shits me people simply don’t know but are happy to support a fashion thats very meaning will soon seem as distant as Napoleon.[/quote]
Guevara had nothing to do with the realities of present day Cuba. US led economic sanctions are responsible for that. In truth, Guevara was against Soviet alignment with Cuba, one of the reasons he left the country.
“…and while Ted Williams is hailed as the only man to bat over .400 in a single season, Gibson hit well over .400 in four different seasons.”
This statement is not entirely factual. Since the modern era of baseball began in 1900, eight players have hit .400 or higher in a season. Ty Cobb and Rogers Hornsby hit over .400 three times in their careers, George Sisler did it twice, while Napolean Lajoie, Joe Jackson, Ted Williams, Bill Terry, and Harry Heilmann each did it once.
There was a big debate on another forum I visit, just the other day in fact. There were a lot of strong opinions. The above point was presented and argued, and so was the “if you don’t live in the South, you don’t understand and should keep your mouth shut” talking point. In any case, it was an interesting debate and led to at least one “flame-out” but possibly a couple. Contentious indeed, but worth thinking about and re-visiting. Thanks for the discussion.
Maybe I should dust off that old copy of Glory? On an old man who lives a block away from me has covered his car in The Rebel Flag stuff. Although he has one sticker I agree with “If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them”. But I digress. Excellent read, and interesting points.
The mystique, the fighting the power, the ‘rebel’ attitude I guess here in Canada is what the flag might represent. Frankly it just upsets me, and rather throw my 7up at the kid wearing that stupid belt buckle and call him a dumb hillbilly.
Of course US sanctions have hurt. But much of that would stop if they would renounce communism(/radical socialism). That he was against Soviet alignment may not have been a good thing either. He was very anti-US (with good reason) but radical. He once claimed he would have fired the nukes had they been in Cuban control. Thankfully those in command at the Kremlin were calmer and soon enough backed down (although I think the Soviets were perfectly justified installing them, given the proliferation of US nuclear bases in Turkey).
But this is all at a tangent to my point: political icons in fashion.
As it is of course an immensely sensitive subject, in my view it isn’t acceptable to wear political clothing. If you have a keen interest in politics, debate it and stop supporting personality cults or ideologies that in most every case done more harm than good. If only Stalinism died with him. It isn’t constructive. Similarly should apply, to my mind, to the Confederacy (which died in its infancy and came to little). Slavery is not an issue of our time.
[quote comment="60672"]Of course US sanctions have hurt. But much of that would stop if they would renounce communism(/radical socialism). That he was against Soviet alignment may not have been a good thing either. He was very anti-US (with good reason) but radical. He once claimed he would have fired the nukes had they been in Cuban control. Thankfully those in command at the Kremlin were calmer and soon enough backed down (although I think the Soviets were perfectly justified installing them, given the proliferation of US nuclear bases in Turkey).
But this is all at a tangent to my point: political icons in fashion.
As it is of course an immensely sensitive subject, in my view it isn’t acceptable to wear political clothing. If you have a keen interest in politics, debate it and stop supporting personality cults or ideologies that in most every case done more harm than good. If only Stalinism died with him. It isn’t constructive. Similarly should apply, to my mind, to the Confederacy (which died in its infancy and came to little). Slavery is not an issue of our time.[/quote]
It’s actually far more complicated than that, but this entry isn’t the place to delve into it at length.
[quote comment="60672"]Of course US sanctions have hurt. But much of that would stop if they would renounce communism(/radical socialism). [/quote]
But how can you say that? Do you really consider it in a way “legal consequence” to completely isolate another country only because it refuses to be “westernized”?
I can’t agree to that, mind you.
[quote comment="60672"]That he was against Soviet alignment may not have been a good thing either. He was very anti-US (with good reason) but radical.[/quote]
You could call the US-lead hate preaching against communism “radical” as well then. Guevara was Marxist, something Stalin had soon dropped and replaced by fascism. Guevara openly criticized the Stalin era while being imprisoned in Mexico in the mid 50s.
And then, show me something that wasn’t to be called radical in those days in one way or the other. Do you think Batista wasn’t “radical”? You think, Cuba would have been any better today if Batista hadn’t been removed by Guevara and his companions?
The problem the USA had with Guevara is to a great degree based on his furceful disappropriation of american great land owners on Cuba in the 1950s. That was what Che meant by “socialism” and what the US considered to be “radical”.
[quote comment="60672"]He once claimed he would have fired the nukes had they been in Cuban control. [/quote]
That source of yours would be of interest to me.
[quote comment="60678"][quote comment="60672"]He once claimed he would have fired the nukes had they been in Cuban control. [/quote]
That source of yours would be of interest to me.[/quote]
At least according to Wikipedia, it’s from p. 545 of Jon Lee Anderson’s “Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life”. You can decide for yourself how reliable a Wikipedia reference is (some people don’t believe anything from the site, whereas some people seem to think of it as infallible).
I’m personally not a huge Che fan based on the few things that I’ve read, but that’s not really a point that I’m going to debate (nor do I find it really necessary). I do think that like the rebel flag, most people just wear his face as a sign of rebellion rather than because they’re familiar with what he did. Whether you love or hate Che, if you’ve been in a teenager’s bedroom or university residence, you have to admit that his image has been so overused so as to devoid it of most of its meaning. It’s come to the point where I come to associate his face more with teenage angst than with his personal ideologies. One can love Che and hate the Confederacy, vice versa, or be somewhere in between and still accept that their images have been watered down over the years and transformed into something marketable.
[quote comment="60533"] At the end of the day, it’s just a piece of cloth; to assign too much meaning to it is to put yourself in the same boat with people who criticize Obama for not wearing a flag lapel pin.[/quote]
I think that’s an extreme leap of logic. First, I don’t believe any flag is just a piece of cloth, just as I don’t believe certain inflammatory words are just collections of letters. Symbols have meaning, and to ignore that is naive. That they may have different meanings to different people is certainly true, but you shouldn’t discount that they still have meaning. A KKK robe is just a piece of cloth, too, but I doubt you’d find too many who would argue that you shouldn’t take offense to it being paraded around town.
As for the Obama comment… I see absolutely no connection between finding certain symbols distasteful, and criticizing someone for not publicly wearing a symbol. His NOT wearing a symbol for the world to see in no way reflects upon his personal views. He can not wear a flag pin and be patriotic, or he can not wear a flag pin and be unpatriotic. But WEARING a symbol for the world to see absolutely reflects upon one’s personal views, as you are making a conscious choice in promoting your cause/country/political affiliation/what have you– you are saying “this is part of who I am.” And if you have chosen to represent yourself through the Rebel Flag, then you must accept that some people will see you as racist, whether that’s your intention or not.
There are many great and informative points here….I feel like I want to add something to the discussion, but most of my points have already been covered.
(side note) The abolition of slavery in Britain happened in 1833 with the Slavery Abolition Act. The act of 1807 merely made the buying, trade and selling of slaves illegal, the owning of slaves was still allowed.
I also feel that political symbols should be worn or displayed with knowledge and care. It’s all good to wear a Che t-shirt, but one should at least know who he was beyond “some Cuban martyr”. I feel the same way about the sickle and hammer flag meant to honor the height of Stalinism.
Ultimately it is the nature of our society that we are allowed to wear what we want, when we want. It would not be productive to “not allow” these sorts of items to continue in distribution. There will always be people who like things because they are “cool” or look good. This won’t change and it can’t be helped, so I propose we concentrate on education. Yes, good old reading, instruction, and learning.
It should not come as a surprise to people that the symbol of the Swastika was taken and adopted by the Nazi’s; that is something everyone should learn in Grade 10 History (at least in Ontario).
People should be aware that Che and Castro worked together, but that Che had ideological differences (as Mr. Good said, too long to get into)
We should know that the sickle and hammer flag does not represent ideal communism, but in fact, a very special form of socialism (not fascism as someone posted above) known commonly as Stalinism.
And we should also know the historical and social connotations of openly flying a rebel confederate flag.
People are free to make their own decisions, even if we don’t agree with them. Knowledge is our best advantage.
Good point, KET. As a psychology major, I find it silly to say that a piece of cloth can have no meaning. We as a species rely heavily on the fact that such things DO contain meaning. Symbols have meanings, whether they be flags, words, roadsigns, paintings, or anything else. You’d have a hard time explaining to a cop that a stop sign is just a piece of metal with no meaning but that which we choose to give it. What you’re saying would be technically true, but you’re still getting the ticket. In my opinion, to say that a flag is nothing but a piece of cloth is no different from saying that the sight of a dying child is nothing but wavelengths striking the rods and cones in the retina of your eye. How silly of us to get so upset of over some mere wavelengths! They have no meaning but that which we give to them. But we do get upset by that image, because it means something to us.
Our society REVOLVES around the fact that symbols have meanings. When you read a book, you’re assuming that the ink on the page is aligned in some meaningful way so that you can draw some meaning out of it. At the end of the day though, it’s still just ink on a page, regardless of whether it’s Clifford the Big Red Dog, or instruction on how to make your own homemade explosives. Flags are no different. The Canadian flag is representative of an entire nation of people. To fly a Canadian flag is to show support or pride in what it represents.
The logic of judging a flag being the same as judging Obama for not wearing the pin is inaccurate. It’s more analogous to judging Obama if he were to walk onto the stage wearing a red armband with a swastika on it. Like KET said, there’s a plain difference between someone not showing visible support for something, and them CLEARLY showing visible support for it. Believe me, if Obama wore the swastika, people would draw quite a bit of meaning from it, despite it simply being a piece of cloth. And rightly so (And no, I’m not comparing the Confederacy with the Nazis, just making a point about symbols and meaning).
If you’re going to wear something with as much meaning behind it as a flag, you have to accept that there is that meaning. Just because someone chooses to ignore it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. Suppose that someone was to start calling black people the N word, but they defended themselves by saying that THEIR definition of the word is not offensive. You can’t just ignore the actual meaning of the word, assign your own, and assume that everything is alright. People will be offended. If people want to fly the rebel flag, it is their right to do so, but they can’t act surprised when people are offended by it.
I see that more here in VA than I ever did in NJ growing up (mostly seen in NJ when I was working at a big amphitheater during Lynyrd Skynyrd concerts and the like) and it does make me wonder. Even being an American, I couldn’t really tell you what all the people using it think it stands for, although I get the impression a lot of them think it stands for being proud to be from the South, just kind of generally. Due, of course, to the South losing the war, and to the disapproval of the “ideals” it stood for, I think that since the time of the Civil War there have definitely been some hard-to-shake stereotypes of Southerners as less educated, or prejudiced, or somehow…less good than those from other areas of the country. So from what I’ve seen, displaying the flag is kind of the Southerners’ way of saying, “we’re Southerners and we’re proud of it!” Although I don’t know that all of them display it for that reason.
Whatever the reason, I cringe when I see it - to me, it still represents the belief that slavery is ok, that whites are superior, etc., and I hate to see people in my country running around proclaiming that. I feel it’s offensive to everyone, and particularly to those who live here and *aren’t* white.
(Sidenote to someone’s observations about swastikas above: the old gymnasium at my university sported tiles with all different kinds of crosses on them as wall coverings in the halls. The crosses included both the Iron Cross and the reverse-swastika (i.e. the original, not the Nazi one), and, when someone actually noticed this during my time there (they’d been up for years, but really, most of us never even saw them as we rushed through the building) caused a big controversy. In the end, IU left them up because they had been put in before WWII.
Oh, here’s a bit on it:
["The Health, Physical Education and Recreation Building (HPER) at Indiana University contains decorative Native American-inspired reverse swastika tilework on the walls of the foyer and stairwells on the southeast side of the building. HPER was built as the university fieldhouse in the 1920's, before the Nazi party came to power in Germany. In recent years, the HPER swastika motif, along with the Thomas Hart Benton murals in nearby Woodburn Hall have been the cause of much controversy on campus."]
Yeah, the mural controversy was ALSO going on while I was there.
It really is interesting how these different symbols mean different things to people, but in my opinion, once a symbol becomes something used primarily to express hatred, one should be VERY careful in choosing whether to display that symbol again. (Although I agree with IU’s decision, because the cost of replacing that stuff would have been impossible. A plaque explaining its historical significance wouldn’t have gone amiss, though.)
[quote comment="60691"]At least according to Wikipedia, it’s from p. 545 of Jon Lee Anderson’s “Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life”. You can decide for yourself how reliable a Wikipedia reference is (some people don’t believe anything from the site, whereas some people seem to think of it as infallible).[/quote]
I wouldn’t so much attack wikipedia now that I have found the mentioned passage. More than that I would be careful about overrating the statement. I also noted that, referring to the source, Guevara said “they” would have fired them, not “he”. So it remains unclear, who he was exactly referring to by saying this, one might assume the cuban leadership of course. Also one should keep in mind that the interview took place only few weeks after the crisis - I am sure, emotions were still boiling at the time.
Duly noted that Wikipedia is not to be trusted, but I maintain that political symbolism is something that should mostly stay out of fashion. Fortunately it is rare. To me politics is to be discussed, not worn.