The Socialization Of Wall Street

The greed that allows poverty to grow in America.
The greed that took down the Saving and Loan Industry.
The greed that brought down Enron and MCI.
The greed that allowed America to be fleeced when the tech bubble burst.
The greed that made affluent people feel the need to compare how much their home is worth as party gossip.
The greed that paid unbelievable sums to retiring/fired executives instead of raising employee wages.
The greed that has made the very fabric of the world finances so thin that it may change our world forever.

And maybe, that will be good after the pain.

No worries Matt… it is far worse than we are being told…
these bailouts are only commuting our eventual death sentence a little further down the line…
there is no escape when the entire system itself is rotten and corrupt the core…
we don’t make anything in this country anymore, so what we decided to do was make “money”… clearly that only works until everyone esle catches on…
Our debt is a giant hand grenade that is being passed from country to country like a hot potato…
Like I keep saying, its not bad yet, and there isn’t anything anyone can do to save it….
Its over.

Oil costs less than $100 a barrel, all the hurricanes that were supposed to ravage the States’ offshore drilling turned out to be duds, and yet yesterday I payed $1.50/L for gas, which is more than I ever payed when oil was over $140 per barrel. Now those are some nice profit margins.

Yes it definitely pays to live in the oil patch, you put in all the hard work drilling for it, ship it away to be refined, then they sell it back to you at the highest national prices so that the execs in Toronto can pay less than $1.20/L. Now I’m not normally an advocate for people being taken out and shot, however I think at this point the only thing left to do is arm the homeless.

Long live the game of Monopoly.

Yep, you never really see government stepping in to “stabilize the market” when corporations are making money hand-over-fist off the back of ordinary tax payers or third world laborers. Trade liberalization and free markets are great then…

I can’t stop thinking about a Robert Ludlam novel I read a few years back called “The Matarese Countdown” (fiction).

As well as being entertaining, it is eerie how much of this story is being acted-out today.

If you get a chance, read the first half, then compare it to world events that have occurred in the last 8 years…… creepy.

Life imitating art can be ominous.

I personally love Bush’s view of the current economic turmoil in the US- he refers to the issue as (paraphrasing) normal market adjustments that will have no negative effect on the solid & stable US economy……
I think he drinks.
A lot.

If only we were socializing Wall Street. Understand that is NOT what is happening. The LOSSES RISK is being socialized, the profits will remain privatized.

Wall Street isn’t stupid enough to actually give up anything for the assistance they are receiving, it’s all at teh expense of the tax payer, with not benefit other than “If you give us the money we won’t kill the economy”. We have allowed these companies to become large enough that they can actually hold the economy hostage and make ransom demands. Largely this is thanks to John McCain and his buddy Phil Gramm, who repealed a bunch of “outdated” regulations put in place to prevent eh Depression from ever happening again.

Government intervention when companies are making money = bad.

Government intervention when companies are in deep shit because of the greedy, fuckheaded moves they make when unregulated for long periods of time = good.

By being able to repeat those two tenets, I’m pretty sure I have qualified myself to be Chairman of the US Federal Reserve. Somebody get John McCain on the line, I want a job!

Talk about needing “CHANGE”!

Amero - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amero

I wonder if I should just go ahead and vote for McCain, because when the shit starts rolling downhill as much as it could in the next few years, I’d rather Bush Jr. and his band of cohorts who started this mess gets the blame, not Obama (which is precisely what will happen if he’s elected and he’ll be out in 4 years.)

Maybe “Obama 2012! Aren’t you tired of all the bullshit yet?” my be more effective long term.

[quote comment="65621"]
As long at it requires millions of dollars for a successful Congressional seat run and hundreds of millions of dollars to buy the White House the government will never belong to the people.[/quote]

Exactly.

To me “socialism” means you share in the good and bad aspects, …. the tag is right on - “Corporate Welfare”
Now if we can only focus on Canada’s largest chronic abuser of Corporate Welfare, Bombardier.

I dont see what you people are bitching about. As far as Im concerned its the governments duty to bail out those companies and prevent the economy from falling deeper into the shitter than it already is. You act as if the government is just doing those companies a personal favour, when in fact its doing all Americans a favour and even Canadians considering how closely our economy is connected to the American economy. Furthermore if you think this problem is just concentrated in north america then you should think again.

Looks like Matthew Good may be “safer than a bank” after all ~~

This is how people get in trouble:

Joe asks me to borrow a dollar to get a bottle of water at lunch. I say o.k. but you have to pay me back 1.10. He agrees. Then he thinks; i’ll lend this 1.10 to jim and ask him to pay me back 1.25. Jim takes it and then lends it to someone else for 2.00. That person lends it for 3.00. That is called leverage. He takes it and lends it for 5.00. Someone else, who is a bad risk to pay and has a hard time getting a loan, borrows it and agrees to pay back 10.00.

I buy goods from some guy in China because he produces a good product at a cheap price. I tell him, hey, I could pay you for this today, or you could take this 20.00 debt I have coming from George. China agrees. Now, when the last guy in line finally cannot make his payment and defaults, he owes 30.00 on the original 1.00. The “Leverage” is 30 times what the original sum was. Some of these Fianancial outfits were leveraged 80 to 100 times what they had in actual cash.

Check out how much AIG has donated to Obama. $!20,000.00. McCain?…$86,000.00.
You can add John Kerry, Charles Schumer, Chris Dodd etc. to the list. Plenty of Republicans, too. That’s why the Feds want to Bail Out the money changers. They are all in it together, a giant Ponzi scheme that depended on the “bigger fool theory” When the first High Tech Internet scam was running full speed, the housing market was red hot, mortgage writers and lenders would give you anything, stating “‘Don’t worry, before the payment goes up in five years, this house will have doubled in value. And oftentimes, it did. You just had to find another, bigger fool than you to buy it.

These companies need to go broke. People need to go to jail for fraud. Obama’s people are running around promoting “The New Depression” to scare up votes. McCain, who resisted at first, calling our economy as “fundamentally sound”. He saw the light and is trying to out depress the New Depressionists!

The amount of our debt that we can attribute to “bad mortgages” is about 5%. Where is the rest of this huge amount of losses coming from? Think about that. Government has no business being in business. It’s not supposed to be in the Insurance business, the auto business, the medical business, the mortgage business. Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac were invented by government to solve problems; not become one. If the Federal Government bails out these criminal capitalists using your tax money and your children’s future. They will have used this “crises” to grab enormous power that should not be theirs…..o.k. Rant Off.

[quote comment="65667"]Have to agree with most, Robert. Nobody is bailing out struggling factory workers, farmers, fisherman… you know, the common man.

The government’s duty was to not allow banks to get away with such reckless behavior. So, the question is - who got the money and how much.

After the Soviet union collapsed, most of the “Federal Reserve” funds have disappeared into thin air. Bread cost 1 000 one week, 1 000 000 the next. Today, Russian private banks are not doing so well, but the government told them (so far) that they asked for it and they will (at least now) will get no federal help. What the future holds depends largely on EU.[/quote]

Right, because punishing the banks by allowing them to go under, and in turning causing thousands of those categorized as “the common man” to lose them jobs and their savings is really going to send a message across to the fat cats in power. You would think that allowing those banks and companies to go under would really punish them even though it would send the entire economy into a ditch along with them, right? Its not the governments place to try and keep the economy under control when the shit hits the fan? like hell its not.

As for our future lying with the EU, that is a truly frightening thought.

[quote comment="65669"]As for our future lying with the EU, that is a truly frightening thought.[/quote]
I wouldn’t be too optimistic about the EU itself, for various reasons. The Euro, however, is stable, well-founded and responsibly used, and it is the next best thing after the Dollar. A distant third would be the Pound, although it is greatly overvalued. No other currencies comes close - Yuan, Yen, Ruble… So if there is a major US destabilization in currency then it wouldn’t be unreasonable to expect things to be tied to the Euro, by simple deduction. How that interfaces with the EU as a whole, is difficult to say.

When you honestly think about it… selfishness and greed can be blamed for almost all of the worlds concerning issues. I’ve thought that for some time now… sure it’s easy to say corporate greed alone is the cause but that stems from the grass roots of individuals… everyone is in the world for themselves and as long as it stays that way, we’re kinda screwed.

[quote comment="65672"]
All systems break from internal abuse and greed. ‘Communism’ as most people identity it as was essentially state capitalism. If the state will abuse institutions of wealth in the same way many corporations and especially individuals will, then the problem is more similar than you might suppose.[/quote]

I don’t see the state abusing institutions in this case, it’s private concerns who have bought out a significant number of high level politicians who now do their bidding, not the voters.

If I’m a senator and I get $500,000 in ‘donations’ from the for-profit healthcare sector, am I going to be for universal health care. I need that money to pay for the expensive TV ads to get re-elected. Few politicians care about the needs of the people they’re supposed to represent, all they see is a way to manipulate opinions to get into power and once there they do exactly what’s needed to stay there.

Systems do break down over time and it’s pretty clear the poitical system in the US is broken, something people have been saying for years. There’s been a lot of talk about electoral reform, but inertia keeps anything from getting done till you get to point where we are now.

[quote comment="65685"]The government most certainly should be in the healthcare business.[/quote]

Yes, it’s a question of social health as opposed to indivdual profit. In the long term countries like the US are going lose more in their economies because of the effects of poor healthcare than is made up in ‘profits’.

There’s something obscene in making money off of other peoples misery in my opinion.

[quote comment="65667"] After the Soviet union collapsed, most of the “Federal Reserve” funds have disappeared into thin air. Bread cost 1 000 one week, 1 000 000 the next. Today, Russian private banks are not doing so well, but the government told them (so far) that they asked for it and they will (at least now) will get no federal help. What the future holds depends largely on EU.[/quote]

Interesting how the last sentence was misread to be referring to the States. Not everything is always about America. My paragraph was clearly about Russia. Since Europe is heavily involved in trade with Russia, how Russia deals with its economic voes will depend on Europe’s political view of Russia and its currency. Russia is still not a power that can dictate its terms and the global banks will not come together to save its economy.

As far as Euro goes, there have been whispers of switching to it for trading purposes for at least 2 years.

Nice discussion, though.

“Trying to save a broken system never works”

So true.

This is the first Public demonstration of the type of power that is held by forces most people are unaware of. This is the Public Exectution of Capitalism as we know it. I am so angry I could spit. I have many american dollars saved up in anticipation of buying property that has been abandoned by homeowners and lost by failing banks. Those properties should rightly belong to the towns they sit in. I will gladly pay the taxes and maintain the property. But ooops….the Federal Government has bought all the bad paper so I can’t do that. I can’t rehab the houses and rent them out at reasonable prices to people who need housing. As a private citizen, I can turn on a dime and get these houses filled with the happy laughter of families by next week. The Federal government will let them decay and get vandalized while they are setting up another leval of bureocracy. What they are doing is not Constitutional in my opinion.

Let’s see how this works out. I just might buy in Ireland or Italy. If this country turns socialist or communist, there’ll be blood in the streets. I’m glad I have taken steps to prtotect and support my family. That’s a start.

[quote comment="65688"][quote comment="65685"]The government most certainly should be in the healthcare business.[/quote]

Yes, it’s a question of social health as opposed to indivdual profit. In the long term countries like the US are going lose more in their economies because of the effects of poor healthcare than is made up in ‘profits’.

There’s something obscene in making money off of other peoples misery in my opinion.[/quote]

You think individuals (doctors) dont profit under the Canadian system? Whats obscene is that people seem to think they are entitled to something simply because they dont have it. Im not saying that those unable to afford healthcare dont deserve access to it. But if you think that doctors dont deserve to be paid a lot for what they do then you are crazy.Considering how much time, money, and energy is required to become a successful doctor, the profits earned from that job are compensation for that. There are any number of costs which are not necessarily quantifiable.

“Quoting Matthew Good:

The government most certainly should be in the healthcare business.

Yes, it’s a question of social health as opposed to indivdual profit. In the long term countries like the US are going lose more in their economies because of the effects of poor healthcare than is made up in ‘profits’.

There’s something obscene in making money off of other peoples misery in my opinion.”

There is something obscene in self inflicted misery that costs the rest of society to waste wealth on some of the members.

THINGS TO DO IF YOU WANT SOCIALIZED MEDICENE

1. Lose weight. The amount of people who are overweight in the US is staggering. It leads to Diabetes and certain heart problems. Lose the weight and save hundreds of thousands of dollars.
2.Stop smoking. Don’t piss and moan to me about evil corporations and excess profits. Anybody who still smokes is more dangerous to you than Al Queda. You’re making the tobacco lords rich and you are killing yourself. i watched my brother die from lung cancer. The cost is monsterly high in health and money.
3.Stop drinking. Drinking causes unmentionable misery in society. Everything from child abuse, spousal abuse and massive medical problems and drunk driving deaths. Can we even guess how much money drinklng costs us in money? Let alone in crushed families?
4.Stop taking “recreational ” drugs. Heroin and coke causes millions in health related isssues.
5. Eat more fresh veggies and less red meat. This will help prevent PAD, or hardening of tthe arteries.

That’s just 5 little things you can do as an individual to help cut billions of dollars out of the health care budget. You’ll look better, feel better, the voices in your head will clear, you’ll be less violent and be a more caring person. Your blood pressure will go down and you may even have a better erection. (some of you)

On the upside, those Americans can pay back their loans with dollars that are worth less. It shouldn’t take long for inflation to set in south of the border.

[quote comment="65815"]
There are doctors who work their ass off for their patients and then there are doctors who do the minimal work possible to still keep their license. I have, in my long history of visiting both, learned to respect the former, pity the latter and be weary of both. What is unbelievable is that the “establishment” (I will let you guess which one) will invariably protect their own without letting the public know what is happening.

You are also missing (I think) the point that the discussion is about healthcare and that healthcare can be broken down into (and more) several broad sections:
1. hospital stays and tests making up the bulk of the expenses
2. medications, the other bulk
3. doctors

long term care is the worst, of course[/quote]

HA! out of curiousity does your “extensive history” and experience of visiting doctors pertain primarily to those within Canada’s healthcare system? Not saying im a fan of the American system or that i think it superior to the Canadian (not that i think the Canadian one is all that spectacular either) but somehow I would think that a privatized system would do a better job of weeding out bad doctors than would a socialized one.

[quote comment="65838"]It would? On the contrary, it seems to me that doctors would be more accountable to the public under a socialized system, whereas in a privatized system they would only be accountable to the bottom line.[/quote]

I dont have time to explain to you the reasons why free market capitalism is efficient because you should take the time to read about them and understand them yourself, but take a look at these two scenarios and you decide which one would lose his job faster:

(1) A baker who sells moldy bread directly to the public and is dependent entirely on public support for his livelihood.

(2) A baker who sells moldy bread directly to the public but is actually employed by a huge, complex, and inefficient bureaucracy.

[quote comment="65849"]Well, after that condescending response, explain away. I’m actually decently schooled in economics. The free market can do a lot of things. I certainly wouldn’t advocate an economy without one. However, there are certain areas of the economy, such as health and education, that are too important, that our well-being is too dependant on, to leave to the whims of the free market.

I’m not sure I want to compare a baker to a doctor. If a doctor is guilty of malpractice for example, I would rather he be disciplined right away rather than wait for the market to put him out of business. And I don’t accept the premise that bureaucracies are necessarily huge, complex, and inefficient.[/quote]

Im not advocating the American style privatized health care system over a socialized system. Personally I think both systems are rather useless and a hybrid system like that used in Japan have been proven to be far more efficient.
Nevertheless my comments were in response to your statement:
[quote comment="65849"] On the contrary, it seems to me that doctors would be more accountable to the public under a socialized system, whereas in a privatized system they would only be accountable to the bottom line. [/quote]
My only point was that markets are incredibly efficient at weeding out the good from the bad, because that “bottom line” (assuming you are referring to money) as you put it is actually a very good incentive at making people work hard.
As for bureaucracies, they are not “Necessarily” huge, complex, and inefficient, but most of the time they are. Over half of Canada’s budget (im pretty sure its somewhere around the 50% mark) is dedicated to the health care system, you really want to debate with me whether its run by a huge, complex, and inefficient bureaucracy?